Bad bad notty!

[OneToothBrewingCompany]

Ok so I pitched the "bad" lot in question 47hrs ago. No bubbling of my airlock. I tested the satelite bottle and still at OG. I was thinking about repitching with Notty 108472V 07 2012 that I have in fridge. Any special techniques I need to know before i try this. Never had to do this before.

 

[ellijo89]

Man i am glad my wasted batch on this yeast was probably the cheapest ive ever brewed at just under 15bucks (mild ale) and not an expensive IPA or anything like that. Feel bad for you guys who really got screwed over.

 

[wyzazz]

Nothing special needs to be done, just sprinkle it in! If you're "one of those people" you can rehydrate the yeast before pitching.

 

[wyzazz]

I agree. I spent a fortune (it was an IPA) on ingredients. Now, if it was only a 5 gallon batch, I could blame it on me. Like fermentation temperatures, bacterial contamination, etc. But it was a 10 gallon batch- and only 5 with Nottingham. It still could be something I did, I suppose- like a bacterial contamination in the fermenter.

However, I brewed the batch as one ten gallon batch, sanitized two fermenters (exactly the same pails, exactly the same age) but otherwise split the batch evenly. Both started fermented within a day- pitched at 64 degrees initally, but it dropped to 62 degrees within 24 hours. The S05 batch tastes awesome, and I'm actually having a glass now. The notty batch was poured on the grass this afternoon, after giving it a bit more time in case that was the issue. Terribly phenolic.

Now, phenols to me scream "bacterial contamination". I don't know the reason for the recall, but since I had fermentation start up right away, I didn't worry too much about it. Now, I'm wondering about bacterial counts in the yeast. Is that an issue at all? I wonder.

After reading your first post, I put some Sesame Street on for my Daughter and went downstairs to take another sample of my CTZ IPA from my fermenter, and after I tasted it I started to breathe again. Funny thing is that I had two packets of Notty in my fridge when I made this batch and contemplated using the one with the bad lot # because it wasn't expired like the one I actually pitched! I remember mulling over in my head which packet I should pitch, it took me a good 15 minutes before I pitched the expired one.

 

[OneToothBrewingCompany]

Nothing special needs to be done, just sprinkle it in! If you're "one of those people" you can rehydrate the yeast before pitching.

do i need to re aerate the wort? after "sprinkling"

 

[wyzazz]

@47 hours I wouldn't re-aerate.

 

[OneToothBrewingCompany]

OK i will just sprinkle and seal. Thanks for your help wywzazz

 

[ArcaneXor]

OneTooth,
I would rehydrate the yeast for re-pitching so that they don't undergo osmotic shock. Aeration is ok if the original gravity hasn't changed. If it has, definitely don't re-aerate or the beer might taste stale when it's done.

 

[OneToothBrewingCompany]

OneTooth,
I would rehydrate the yeast for re-pitching so that they don't undergo osmotic shock. Aeration is ok if the original gravity hasn't changed. If it has, definitely don't re-aerate or the beer might taste stale when it's done.

forgot to ask... what temp should I repitch at?
thanks for response.

 

[wyzazz]

forgot to ask... what temp should I repitch at?
thanks for response.

Depends on what kind of beer you're making, and how many esters you want. If you want it clean pitch in the low 60's, if you want some esters pitch higher in the mid-high 60's.

 

[Shooter]

I have watched and shook my head, watched and shook my head. I have seen certain vendors here 'take the devils advocate' side by trying to silence home brewer's publicly question the quality and state their experience with this yeast, even when there have been previous ACKNOWLEDGED issues with the yeast, so when they look dubious they have taught squelching controversy to preserve their bottom line.

I have advocated using S-05 or at least S-04 without trying to weigh in amidst the guys who slash and burn and flame those that reported problems, by insinuating it was all them, their practices or their luck, just because they themselves had not experienced it.

Had a larger majority of home brewers taken due caution and boycotted when controversy arose, I suspect that these issues woulda, coulda, shoulda been taken care of far quicker and with far less damage to the other home brewer's pocket books. There was ample cause for concern and leeriness from way back.

Shame on those that kicked rather than listened. Shame on those that counseled for quiet and chastised to not allow public experience statements.

Okay, I'll bite!

There were quite a number of people who said anyone having an issue needed to be clear they were having a problem. People were making statements like, my yeast was sticking to the package so Notty is therefore bad. Well, I'm sorry, that's hardly proof of anything. What MOST of the people that were questioning this issue were saying, and I was absolutely one of them, is that there was an awful lot of stuff being posted on here, and no where else about this problem, and not everyone seemed to be reporting the issues they were having to the manufacturer. Anyone who said anything like, you sure this isn't a problem with your process were shouted down real quickly in that other thread. In fact, Dwarven was the only one to stick it out.

In the end the manufacturer issues a recall in which they state and I quote,

"Internal tests conducted on a cross-section of sachets of this batch over several weeks have indicated normal performance, but given the widespread geographical nature of the comments being received, we feel it is best to ask retailers and distributors to return any inventory of this specific batch rather than risk brewers having a negative experience with our products."

So, in essence they can find NOTHING wrong with this product, but they are recalling the product because they are getting enough complaints that they don't want anyone to feel like they aren't confident in using. I believe this shows they are trying to go above and beyond what should be necessary, to make their customers happy. Good for them!

EDIT: Just a housekeeping issue to keep the site running smoothly, I'm wondering if there is a way to combine this thread with the larger Notty thread?

 

[Rover]

Shooter,

Danstar lied, It's not because of the "widespread geographical nature of the comments being received", It's because Yopper finally had a problem with Notty.

With your above post, it still seems like you don't believe there was problem. I understand though. My last two Notty experiences were normal, but the two before that (when many were coming down on my process or what ever) was all but normal. I guess it's not real till you experience it for your self.

I bet you can find some cheep Notty and it wouldn't take long to find the proof.

 

[dwarven_stout]

Okay, I'll bite!

There were quite a number of people who said anyone having an issue needed to be clear they were having a problem. People were making statements like, my yeast was sticking to the package so Notty is therefore bad. Well, I'm sorry, that's hardly proof of anything. What MOST of the people that were questioning this issue were saying, and I was absolutely one of them, is that there was an awful lot of stuff being posted on here, and no where else about this problem, and not everyone seemed to be reporting the issues they were having to the manufacturer. Anyone who said anything like, you sure this isn't a problem with your process were shouted down real quickly in that other thread. In fact, Dwarven was the only one to stick it out.

In the end the manufacturer issues a recall in which they state and I quote,

"Internal tests conducted on a cross-section of sachets of this batch over several weeks have indicated normal performance, but given the widespread geographical nature of the comments being received, we feel it is best to ask retailers and distributors to return any inventory of this specific batch rather than risk brewers having a negative experience with our products."

So, in essence they can find NOTHING wrong with this product, but they are recalling the product because they are getting enough complaints that they don't want anyone to feel like they aren't confident in using. I believe this shows they are trying to go above and beyond what should be necessary, to make their customers happy. Good for them!

EDIT: Just a housekeeping issue to keep the site running smoothly, I'm wondering if there is a way to combine this thread with the larger Notty thread?

I cannot agree more with this post. Just like Shooter, I was one of the posters consistently urging for a rational approach to reported yeast trouble. We advocated for people who thought they had an honest problem to contact the manufacturer and the distributor with the details of their trouble. Unshockingly, (or not, depending on your belief in the Industrial Brewing Yeast Conspiracy™) it seems that this approach bore fruit. As I wrote more than once in that thread, sitting around in an internet forum and b!tching accomplishes nothing.

On the other hand, while it seems Lallemand is doing the right thing here, there's no way around the fact that that other thread was filled to the brim with detritus. The "sticky yeast" phenomenon that Shooter mentions is high up on the list of useless posts. EVERY dry yeast packet I've used (which has been plenty) has had yeast sticking to the sides. I have to physically shake it, bat on the bottom, what-have-you to get it out because I hate throwing away yeast. But as soon as one guy reports a problem, every johnny come lately decides he has problem because his yeast is sticking.

I'm glad that Lallemand is recalling the batch. I'm less glad that those of us advocating a reasoned response in light of "issues" like static cling yeast and "tartness" (which has been a characteristic of hot-fermented Notty as long as I've used it) are being told "shame on you".

 

[Rover]

I cannot agree more with this post. Just like Shooter, I was one of the posters consistently urging for a rational approach to reported yeast trouble. We advocated for people who thought they had an honest problem to contact the manufacturer and the distributor with the details of their trouble. Unshockingly, (or not, depending on your belief in the Industrial Brewing Yeast Conspiracy™) it seems that this approach bore fruit. As I wrote more than once in that thread, sitting around in an internet forum and b!tching accomplishes nothing.

On the other hand, while it seems Lallemand is doing the right thing here, there's no way around the fact that that other thread was filled to the brim with detritus. The "sticky yeast" phenomenon that Shooter mentions is high up on the list of useless posts. EVERY dry yeast packet I've used (which has been plenty) has had yeast sticking to the sides. I have to physically shake it, bat on the bottom, what-have-you to get it out because I hate throwing away yeast. But as soon as one guy reports a problem, every johnny come lately decides he has problem because his yeast is sticking.

I'm glad that Lallemand is recalling the batch. I'm less glad that those of us advocating a reasoned response in light of "issues" like static cling yeast and "tartness" (which has been a characteristic of hot-fermented Notty as long as I've used it) are being told "shame on you".

I only remember two or three references to the "static cling" you mention. It seems like you guys took that example (sticking to the sides) that a couple of people posted and made it your reason for ignoring all the other relevant examples being reported.

I understand why a few here were a little frustrated that a few of you got on your high horse and called many a ""noob", or a "johnny come lately" for what we were experiencing.

No hard feelings though. This is still the coolest place to hang out on the net while drinking a homebrew

 

[Shooter]

Shooter,

Danstar lied, It's not because of the "widespread geographical nature of the comments being received", It's because Yopper finally had a problem with Notty.

Rover, cheers my friend. I'm hoping you meant this in the comical way I'm taking it!!

You're right, I'm still not convinced, but that doesn't mean I'm ruling out completely that there isn't an issue. My biggest concern was with some of the odd anecdotal evidence we were getting in the the other thread without a lot of people taking the time to really analyze their results.

 

[Shooter]

I'm glad that Lallemand is recalling the batch. I'm less glad that those of us advocating a reasoned response in light of "issues" like static cling yeast and "tartness" (which has been a characteristic of hot-fermented Notty as long as I've used it) are being told "shame on you".

Exactly!

 

[Shooter]

I understand why a few here were a little frustrated that a few of you got on your high horse and called many a ""noob", or a "johnny come lately" for what we were experiencing.

No, no, no, you were doing so well, the comical reply, actually getting me to like you and then this!!! I don't think anyone was getting on any high horse. People were being honest abrupt and hoping for SOMEONE, ANYONE who thought there was a problem to do a really good test. I mean, I could have done one, but, the truth is, I wasn't the one saying there was a problem. Instead we got one post after another of, I pitched this and it smelled funny. Well, guess what, every batch of yeast I've ever pitched smelled "funny!"

On a serious note, I'm hoping this will put this issue to rest. Personally, I will continue to support Nottingham...until I start having problems and then, oh boy, just wait for the thread I start!!!

 

[Rover]

No, no, no, you were doing so well, the comical reply, actually getting me to like you and then this!!! I don't think anyone was getting on any high horse. People were being honest abrupt and hoping for SOMEONE, ANYONE who thought there was a problem to do a really good test. I mean, I could have done one, but, the truth is, I wasn't the one saying there was a problem. Instead we got one post after another of, I pitched this and it smelled funny. Well, guess what, every batch of yeast I've ever pitched smelled "funny!"

On a serious note, I'm hoping this will put this issue to rest. Personally, I will continue to support Nottingham...until I start having problems and then, oh boy, just wait for the thread I start!!!

I guess it doesn't really matter to me if you like me or not. I know that the vast majority here are good people and willing to help (you included). I hope this all quickly goes away so I can get back to reading and learning about how to brew the best beer I can make.
Man, that kind of sounds like I do care if you like me or not.
I don't really

 

[Rover]

Rover, cheers my friend. I'm hoping you meant this in the comical way I'm taking it!!

Yeah I should have puta after that comment

 

[bniesen]

I brewed a batch of porter a day before this news hit. I pitched my Notty at about 60-65F and it started to take off within 32 hrs. It looked like it was fermenting strong on 10-4, I replaced the blow off tube with an airlock last night and I checked it this morning. I'm scheduled to bottle on 10-23. I'm guessing I got lucky with the Notty?
I intend on washing it for future batches. Should I wait to wash a different batch?

 

[wyzazz]

I brewed a batch of porter a day before this news hit. I pitched my Notty at about 60-65F and it started to take off within 32 hrs. It looked like it was fermenting strong on 10-4, I replaced the blow off tube with an airlock last night and I checked it this morning. I'm scheduled to bottle on 10-23. I'm guessing I got lucky with the Notty?
I intend on washing it for future batches. Should I wait to wash a different batch?

If this batch worked for you then wash it and use it for consecutive batches, I don't see any issues with that. Now, if you have some sachet's with that recalled lot # on them then I'd return them to your closest retailer.

 

[bsdx]

Its just amazing how much commotion a $1.55 packet of yeast can cause.

For those of you who have recently used, or considering using the affected packets and aren't concerned about using extra yeast, I'd pitch another packet each 24 hours until you see the activity you usually expect. Even if its more packets of Notty or a different yeast. If you come across a good packet then you have a chance of saving your beer before the damaged yeast can have its way.

 

[Revvy]

I've never like notty for other reasons, so I don't use it. But I do want to weigh in on something that I've seen in this thread and the other ones, people using incorrect "criteria" to declare their yeast dead.

Remember folks, even with healthy yeast it sometimes takes 72 hours for yeast to show visible signs of fermentation and if you are only going by your airlock bubbling, then you don't really know what's going on. Every day we get we get panicked new brewer coming on here saying "oh my god my yeast is dead because my airlock is bubbling." And often many of them have perfectly good krausen growing inside their buckets when they go to take a hydro reading...or they see it in the carboy but they are so married to the idea that an airlock has to bubble that they are putting rationality aside because of a crappy piece of plastic and a rubber stopper or a grommet.

So all I'm urging is to use some "good brewing practices" and don't just jump on the panic bandwagon. As plenty of people are posting their yeast from the same lot is working perfectly fine. Yes I believe that there is potentially an issue with the yeast and it is not ALL just new brewer panic, but I also believe there is also a certain level of panic brewer hypochondria, because that is human nature, and we have new brewer panic/hypochondria, even when they are using yeast with NO known issues.

Remember most of the time on here, those threads turn out to be non-problems/non issues anyway, and the poster comes back and says his fermentation started or their beer turned out fine.

But if it's been 3 hours since you pitched or 12 for that matter, don't just assume there is a problem. Give it some more time give it 24 or 48 hours, and then either take a hydrometer reading, or open the bucket to check for krasuen formation, or at least push down on your bucket lid or carboy stopper and see if there is suddenly a mass of bubbles which would indicate that co2 has been created, because fermentation is happening. Obviously the only way to know is with a hydrometer.

But please, if you've pitched your beer with notty already before seeing this, then just use some common sense brewing practices, don't just jump on the panic bandwagon because it is not behaving the way you THINK it should, ie. your airlock should be bubbling, or you should have rocking krausen 3 hours after you pitched, because often, even on a GOOD day, perfectly healthy yeast may not behave that way.

And please, don't go by "static cling" as a declaration that your yeast is "bad" I've had packages of safale yeast where the yeast sticks to the sides of the packet when I've opened it...often in the winter when my place is staticy anyway...do just go by that, please.

 

[OneToothBrewingCompany]

So I repitched a another lot of Notty last night when I had roughly 48hrs of inactivity with the lot in question. Woke up this morning to bubbles. Ahhh. What a beauitful morning so far.

 

[Shooter]

I guess it doesn't really matter to me if you like me or not. I know that the vast majority here are good people and willing to help (you included). I hope this all quickly goes away so I can get back to reading and learning about how to brew the best beer I can make.
Man, that kind of sounds like I do care if you like me or not.
I don't really

Nah, I like you, I think you actually seemed to have one of the more level headed takes on everything in the other thread, which I appreciated. Hopefully this response by Llaam, llllaalla, however you spell their name, clears things up, it's all good!

Anyway, I'll be away from the computer for a few days, but expect this to all be sorted out when I get back!

 

[HenryHill]

I don't have a dog in this hunt, so I'm maybe a little more objective to all this.

I saw that there were numerous references to a bad smell from many posters, and the statement by Yoop suggesting a possibility of contamination was the only one I recall. Most experiencing poor results just stated that the yeast appeared to be largely dead.

I also saw a couple references to the datestamp issue of pinholes, but have been disappointed that no one has shown pics of the package's datestamp, flashlight testing, or examined the possibility of pinholes due to excessive stamping pressure or heat. Pics of these packages from the affected lot are really important towards solving this mystery.

The thing about Notty is it's always been reliable and has been bullet proof for many years and many millions of brewers-that is the allure, the whole reason it was so successful. But when it ceases to be worry free and creates unreliable results, it's value as a 'go to' yeast is diminished. The lack of responses to emails is also troubling, and as a PR faux pas, creates a negative stigma of manufacturer ambivalence, even if unwarranted. Thing is, Notty is not the only dry yeast readily available, and they have admitted an earlier issue, two big reasons to be on top of this or any new controversy. But there was a very long period of refusal or denial or something, with the first go round on this pinhole recall deal, and there does not seem to have been any noticeable change in character of the latest response. Surely a formal notice to look for this pinhole issue from them would have gone a long ways towards at least appearing to care.

I don't use it since I don't care for the yeast character it has, but my belief in the infallibility of this yeast (and a seemingly weak concern from the maker) is now forever shaken, and I won't- can't ever recommend it to new brewers anymore.

 

[smizak]

Oh the drama.

I'm not gonna say there is no chance some noob brewers panicked after reading these threads and exacerbated a problem.

I'll tell you what I do know. This batch of Nottingham wouldn't rehydrate for me. I've used it before, as well as other dry yeasts, wine and beer, dozens of times. I've never seen yeast behave this way. It was sour smelling as well. 24 hours later, it was still sitting on the bottom of the fermenter, still granulated. This was before I even knew there was a "new bad batch Nottingham" thread. Like Yoop, I went and searched AFTER I had a problem.

There were a few posters who were rather flippant in their replies to these problems. I understand and respect the posters who demanded more information than "sticky yeast", but some peeps were still being jerks even after I and some others posters thoroughly explained their experience and process. So I get Henry Hills rant, and I also feel a little vindicated.

I also doubt that Danstar issued a recall because of this forum alone. There has to be more going on.

 

[SwampassJ]

 

[RavenChief]

I don't have a dog in this hunt, so I'm maybe a little more objective to all this.

I saw that there were numerous references to a bad smell from many posters, and the statement by Yoop suggesting a possibility of contamination was the only one I recall. Most experiencing poor results just stated that the yeast appeared to be largely dead.

I also saw a couple references to the datestamp issue of pinholes, but have been disappointed that no one has shown pics of the package's datestamp, flashlight testing, or examined the possibility of pinholes due to excessive stamping pressure or heat. Pics of these packages from the affected lot are really important towards solving this mystery.

The thing about Notty is it's always been reliable and has been bullet proof for many years and many millions of brewers-that is the allure, the whole reason it was so successful. But when it ceases to be worry free and creates unreliable results, it's value as a 'go to' yeast is diminished. The lack of responses to emails is also troubling, and as a PR faux pas, creates a negative stigma of manufacturer ambivalence, even if unwarranted. Thing is, Notty is not the only dry yeast readily available, and they have admitted an earlier issue, two big reasons to be on top of this or any new controversy. But there was a very long period of refusal or denial or something, with the first go round on this pinhole recall deal, and there does not seem to have been any noticeable change in character of the latest response. Surely a formal notice to look for this pinhole issue from them would have gone a long ways towards at least appearing to care.

I don't use it since I don't care for the yeast character it has, but my belief in the infallibility of this yeast (and a seemingly weak concern from the maker) is now forever shaken, and I won't- can't ever recommend it to new brewers anymore.

I think the "pin hole" issue was from the previous batch. With this latest bad batch, pin holes have not been an issue.

 

[ILuvIPA]

Just a newb here, only been brewing since January. Switched to notty (from smack packs) early summer and have loved the notty. Takes off like a rocket, ferments fast & hard & FWIW I really like the character in my IPAs. . .so much so I ordered up and have 9 more packets in the fridge. (not the listed lot but still, you guys have me wondering.)

Anyway, I'm enough of a newb I was totaly oblivious to this whole "the dark side of notty" thing. I've got two batches in the fermenter (one bottles tomorrow morning) and am planning to brew/pitch again tomorrow afternoon. Both the current fermenters went zoom-zoom (like a rocket.) I guess I'll keep pitching the notty I have and keep my fingers crossed. Hoping I don't join the ranks of the fallen!