Aw dang, messed up! *help

[gurrback]

So, a friend and I decided to brew "Hopfather" as seen in Extreme Brewing. We followed the directions word for word, changing only the timing of our DME addition at the advice of fellow HBT users. I'm fairly confident that our timing and technique was spot on according to the directions, but there are a few issues with fermentation.

Our original gravity reading was out... BIG TIME. I don't have the book in front of me right now so I can't give the exact difference, but we ended up with 1.090 while the book put it somewhere in the high 1.060's. The spread was at least .020 points.

Furthermore, we under pitched. At the advice of the book we used a single liquid yeast pack from White Labs. I know now that I probably needed at least twice this much. Furthermore, a high-gravity yeast may have been preferable.

After three weeks of fermentation our gravity was sitting at 1.038. We allowed the beer to sit for three more days, took another reading, and got 1.032. However, at this point the beer had been sitting for two weeks on a substantial amount of hops so we decided to rack to a secondary.

So, right now the beer has a ton of sediment, yeast, etc. and is sitting in the secondary around 70-71F. My question is, by under pitching have we done any serious damage? Should we just leave it...and if YES (which is my instinct) how long is too long? Should we consider re-pitching?

Thanks a lot for your advice!

 

[MalFet]

Is this an extract recipe? Did you top off? If so, it is unlikely that your gravity was actually far off from the recipe's prediction. Most likely, the dense wort hadn't fully mixed with the top-off water.

Generally, don't rack to secondary until your beer is done fermenting. What is the gravity at now? Is it still changing?

The solution, though, is to stop bugging your beer. Leave it alone and stop annoying it. It is trying to ferment.

 

[BeerJorge]

.02 is a big difference... you need to take your gravity reading when the wort is diluted to it's final size...

1.060 could have used a yeast starter... leave the beer until you don't see any change in gravity reading for 2-3 days in a row... if it's still too high, then make a starter and pitch more yeast... but for now, don't mess with it...

Here's a couple of videos that may help you...
Fermentation problems
Yeast Starter

 

[gurrback]

This was an extract beer with specialty grains. It was a full 5 gallon boil. Everything was thoroughly mixed. I took three separate readings and still had the ultra high OG. I thought that perhaps it was the hydrometer, but I brewed a second batch the same day and it was spot on. I haves used it since with no problems.

This was probably the wrong move but I read that leaving dry hops in the primary for more than 2 weeks would have undesired results...that's why I racked it. I realize now that it actually isn't done fermenting and removing it from the primary source of yeast is a bad idea.

 

[MalFet]

This was an extract beer with specialty grains. It was a full 5 gallon boil. Everything was thoroughly mixed. I took three separate readings and still had the ultra high OG. I thought that perhaps it was the hydrometer, but I brewed a second batch the same day and it was spot on. I haves used it since with no problems.

This was probably the wrong move but I read that leaving dry hops in the primary for more than 2 weeks would have undesired results...that's why I racked it. I realize now that it actually isn't done fermenting and removing it from the primary source of yeast is a bad idea.

Something is fishy. With an extract recipe, it's pretty much impossible to be off by more than a couple of points unless your recipe was incorrect or you measured your ingredients incorrectly.

Dry hopping typically isn't done until the fermentation has more-or-less stopped, too. All that CO2 activity drives off the volatiles.

 

[gurrback]

Something is fishy. With an extract recipe, it's pretty much impossible to be off by more than a couple of points unless your recipe was incorrect or you measured your ingredients incorrectly.

Dry hopping typically isn't done until the fermentation has more-or-less stopped, too. All that CO2 activity drives off the volatiles.

Our recipe called for dry hopping to begin at the 1 week mark (actually 5-7 days I believe, again don't have the book in front of me). We actually added them after 9 days because fermentation appeared to be active. We racked after 3 weeks and one day at 70f.

I know that something is up here. I'm going to go back to my order form an see if we didn't add an extra lb of DME or something stupid like that.

As or the high gravity reading, I'll let it sit for a few more days and see if it hasn't come down. If it hasn't, is the general
consensus that I re-pitch? Again, at last measure gravity was at 1.032. It has been sitting for almost 3.5 weeks at 70f.

 

[MalFet]

Our recipe called for dry hopping to begin at the 1 week mark (actually 5-7 days I believe, again don't have the book in front of me). We actually added them after 9 days because fermentation appeared to be active. We racked after 3 weeks and one day at 70f.

I know that something is up here. I'm going to go back to my order form an see if we didn't add an extra lb of DME or something stupid like that.

As or the high gravity reading, I'll let it sit for a few more days and see if it hasn't come down. If it hasn't, is the general
consensus that I re-pitch? Again, at last measure gravity was at 1.032. It has been sitting for almost 3.5 weeks at 70f.

An extra 20 gravity points would need more like 2 1/2 pounds of dme (or roughly 2 gallons less water). Since it's not clear what exactly went into this batch, you might want to consider a fast fermentation test.

Draw off 250 mL or so of your beer, and pitch an enormous amount of yeast. If you have some slurry sitting around, that will work, or you can just use a teaspoon of bread yeast. Mix it up, get it nice and aerated, and let the thing sit for 48 hours at 90ºF or so.

If the gravity on the test sample drops further, then your yeast has gone dormant even though there are sugars remaining in the wort. If the gravity stays the same, there's likely no more fermentable solute in your beer. If that is the case, there's some trouble shooting to be done.

In the mean time, post your recipe. You can certainly repitch, but that won't give you much of a diagnosis.

 

[gurrback]

OK! I've found the recipe online so I can list the specifics.

http://books.google.com/books?id=yQ...0CBkQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=Hopfather IPA&f=false

It was a 6 gallon full boil (I remember it was 6, not 5) and we used 10lbs of DME. It was recommended that we dry hop 3-5 days in, but I waited until just over a week because fermentation looked to be quite active.

OG - 1.066 to 1.069. We had about 1.090

FG - 1.012 to 1.013. We currently have 1.032 after 24 days.

 

[iron_city_ap]

If the gravity is still dropping, its all good. Granted, its probably good for it to stop around 1.032. If your OG was .02 high, then you'd want a higher FG as well to keep it balanced. If the gravity drops too low the beer will start to taste dry.

As to why the gravity is so high, you got me. Beers that big usually take months and months to age. I'll be curious to hear how it turns out.

 

[MalFet]

Wow. The book lists 10 pounds of light DME, and then in parentheses says that's equivalent to 3 kilos. 3 kilos is 6.6 pounds, so the recipe is a misprint. That's pretty sloppy.

10 pounds of DME will get you a gravity of around 1.073 on its own, plus another couple points for the pound of crystal.

As this recipe is stated, even with the 10lbs of DME, there's just no way you could get to 1.090. You say that it was a 6 gallon full boil. Does that mean that you had 6 gallons at the END of the boil, or at the BEGINNING. A six gallon batch means that you should start your boil with more like 7 gallons. If you started with 6 gallons, you likely ended up with about 5, which would give you an OG of around 1.090 for this recipe.

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

Just my $0.02, do ya think maybe the 3-5 day dry hop meant the last 3-5 days? Dry hops are done at the end, not beginning of fermentation. End meaning once FG is reached. And why would you take your beer out of primary before it's reached FG? Especially to go into secondary? You would only need to go to secondary to dry hop, which you did in primary..... My guess is underpitching, adding a bunch of hops early in primary and removing your beer from the yeast before FG was reached caused a stuck fermentation. Try making a yeast starter with a tolerant neutral strain, repitch, and leave it be until FG, and I emphasize FG, is reached. Your hydro will tell you when that is.

 

[cshamilton]

If you followed that recipe and ended up with 5 gallons post boil and didn't top up to 6 - your gravity would be about 1.090.

Check gravity every other day and maybe try rocking the fermentor a bit. If it doesn't move then try repitching with a starter. Either someting neutral like WLP001 or high gravity yeast. One other thing you could try is hydrating some bakers yeast in a few cups of water AND boil it for 10 min and add to your fermentor - not sure why that helps but it seems to help with stuck fermentations (dead yeast release nutrients ?).

 

[gurrback]

Wow. The book lists 10 pounds of light DME, and then in parentheses says that's equivalent to 3 kilos. 3 kilos is 6.6 pounds, so the recipe is a misprint. That's pretty sloppy.

10 pounds of DME will get you a gravity of around 1.073 on its own, plus another couple points for the pound of crystal.

As this recipe is stated, even with the 10lbs of DME, there's just no way you could get to 1.090. You say that it was a 6 gallon full boil. Does that mean that you had 6 gallons at the END of the boil, or at the BEGINNING. A six gallon batch means that you should start your boil with more like 7 gallons. If you started with 6 gallons, you likely ended up with about 5, which would give you an OG of around 1.090 for this recipe.

I notice the conversion error now that you point it out. Given the books reputation I should have paid closer attention.

Also, you're right...I didn't top off to 6 gallons. My newb reason for not doing that was that I thought the extra gallon (most of the recipes in this book called for 5) was to compensate for longer boiling time (90min) and more evaporation. Eek.

With regards to racking the beer prematurely, again in my newb head I thought that removing the beer from hops after sitting on them for 2 weeks was more important. Obviously I messed that up. It was more important to let the beer finish fermenting in the primary before taking it off the hops. If I had used hop bags I could have just lifted them out and I wouldn't have decided to rack. Doh.

My interpretation of the dry hoping schedule is that it calls to add a portion at the 3-5 day range, then again at the 7 day mark. However, in the same sentance it says "after fermentation is complete". Well, when is fermentation complete? Certainly not after 3-5 days...or 7 for that matter. This book is a little messed up.


OK- so I've learned a number of valuable lessons here. I'll let the beer sit and take a few gravity readings this week to see if things are stuck or if they are moving. If not, I'll consider re-pitching.

 

[iron_city_ap]

Be a little careful on the re-pitching. Since your OG was high, by hitting the origional FG will change the balance and flavor of the recipe. If you aren't worried about it, then rock on.

Starting at 1.060 and ending at 1.012 gives you about 6.25% abv
Starting at 1.090 and ending at 1.012 gives you about 10.25% abv
Starting at 1.090 and ending at 1.032 gives you about 7.6% abv

If you do decide to repitch, make sure you use a yeast that can handle the alchohol content. No sense in pitching something that isn't going to do much if anything in the end.

 

[gurrback]

This is just a hypothetical, but could I leave it in the 1.030 range and still have a reasonably drinkable beer? What about 1.020?

 

[cshamilton]

This is just a hypothetical, but could I leave it in the 1.030 range and still have a reasonably drinkable beer? What about 1.020?

It should be drinkable at 1.030 - give it a taste. If you are bottling though I'd be a bit concerned about finishing high - if you are stuck and add sugar to prime then you might end up too much fermentation and have bottle bombs.

I would imagine this would probably end around 1.020-1.022 if it's not stuck.

 

[El Pistolero]

OK- so I've learned a number of valuable lessons here. I'll let the beer sit and take a few gravity readings this week to see if things are stuck or if they are moving. If not, I'll consider re-pitching.

Sounds like you've learned another lesson as well...the pages of that book are best used for toilet paper.

 

[nutty_gnome]

It IS supposed to be a double IPA. the range given of 66-69 SG is too low for an Double IPA. 10 pounds of DME does bring it to double IPA range. But the errors are so ambiguous I don't know which way it is supposed to be.

I plugged it into beersmith and if you had 5 gals after the boil you probably did have 1.090.

As to what to do now... I'd rouse it to get the yeast in suspension and then put it somewhere 5 degrees warmer than where it was to try to get it going again. If that doesn't work there are more complicated procedures as others have and will suggest. In any case, there is no quick fix or solution.

 

[seabass07]

It does actually say to start the boil with 6 gallons. Sounds like the recipe is F'd up and you just followed it. Everything you did is what the recipe calls for, it's just wrong.

After entering it into beersmith...the problem is the kg to lb problem. If you had followed the kg, it would have been 1.066 OG. Everything else is right. You then underpitched because the recipe called for barely enough yeast for the correct OG. Fermentation can definitely be complete after 7 days if you pitch right.

 

[gurrback]

Update


So, after racking the beer to a secondary (doh) and letting it sit for 4 days, I've taken a gravity reading and it's sitting at the same place it was prior to racking - 1.032.

So, I've received some mixed opinions. Do I :

a) re-pitch with a HG yeast?

b) Let it mellow, check the gravity in another 4 days or so?

c) call it a day, bottle it and see how it turns out?


Since the OG was higher than expected at 1.090, is there any logic in just leaving it at 1.032, or should it still come down to the sub 1.020 range like the original recipe suggests. Rememeber that the original recipe also called for a SG of 1.069...

Thanks a lot for your help everyone. Hopefully I can get a response today as I need to purchase the yeast before the weekend.

 

[MalFet]

With a recipe like that, it likely won't go down to 1.012, but 1.032 is still high. Mid-1.020s seems like it should be more likely. The best thing to do is, in my opinion, still the fast fermentation test I recommended before. Otherwise, you can certainly try repitching with a healthy cellcount and some nutrient.

 

[gurrback]

So how do I know exactly how much yeast is adequate at this point? If it's sitting at 1.032, how much yeast for how long will bring it to a reasonable range? Say...1.25. That's not a whole lot to move and I don't want to over do it.

 

[iron_city_ap]

How much yeast do you have? Do you use packets, or liquid, or harvest your own? I would first try GENTLY stirring up the yeast from the bottom and see what that gives you before adding any new stuff. It much more free, but you will need to let the beer sit a few days to let the sediment settle. Like you said, it isn't all that far to go, so you don't want to re-pitch too much. If you do decide to repitch, I'd use 1/2 the normal amount.

 

[Zixxer10R]

This was an extract beer with specialty grains. It was a full 5 gallon boil. Everything was thoroughly mixed. I took three separate readings and still had the ultra high OG. I thought that perhaps it was the hydrometer, but I brewed a second batch the same day and it was spot on. I haves used it since with no problems.

This was probably the wrong move but I read that leaving dry hops in the primary for more than 2 weeks would have undesired results...that's why I racked it. I realize now that it actually isn't done fermenting and removing it from the primary source of yeast is a bad idea.

You shouldn't have dry-hopped until fermentation was complete, to avoid this exact problem.

 

[gurrback]

You shouldn't have dry-hopped until fermentation was complete, to avoid this exact problem.

I now understand and appreciate this fact! The problem was that I was reading from a book that had unclear directions. I suspected things were fishy so I held off an extra 4-5 days on the dry hoping, but it was still obviously too soon.




OK - so I've got an extra vial of White Labs california V yeast. Should I create a starter? Should I add from the vial directly? Ahck..thanks guys, really confused and don't want to mess things up any further.

 

[NordeastBrewer77]

OK - so I've got an extra vial of White Labs california V yeast. Should I create a starter? Should I add from the vial directly? Ahck..thanks guys, really confused and don't want to mess things up any further.

Yes, you should make a starter, pitch and be patient.

 

[gurrback]

Sorry to keep bumping this, but I'm getting some really conflicting information. Some people are suggesting that I make a full-on starter and repitch. Others are warning that this method could lower the gravity too much and dry out the final product.

I can see the logic of both arguments. Would pitching an entire vial without a starter be a happy medium?

 

[Cape Brewing]

I wouldnt make a starter, you should have more than enough of a yeast cake there to tackle the remaining sugars. I also wouldn't pitch a new yeast. You're at just under 8% ABV now hich isnt high. I have a US-05 (WLP 001) cake that is fermenting north of 15% ABV right now.

My guess is that by underpitching, you put an extra hurtin on the yeasties and they've used up every drop of oxygen in the wort. If that is the case, it pretty much doesn't matter what you pitch, or what temp you put it at, it's stalled.

My recommendation.. Buy an O2 stone and regulator. Yeah they are about fifty bucks but you'll have it forever and using O2 is a REAL nice thing for the yeasties.

I would hit it with a healthy shot of O2, swirl it around and let the current cake do the work.

If you think about it... You just made a huge starter by the primary fermetation of this batch. Why make another, much smaller starter, to add to the huge amount of yeast you just grew?

 

[cshamilton]

Sorry to keep bumping this, but I'm getting some really conflicting information. Some people are suggesting that I make a full-on starter and repitch. Others are warning that this method could lower the gravity too much and dry out the final product.

I can see the logic of both arguments. Would pitching an entire vial without a starter be a happy medium?

Have you tried just resuspending the cake yet? That can be enough to get things started. That is the easiest thing to try first. If it hasn't moved after 3-4 days then you can consider adding a starter.

If you use the same yeast, you are not likely to dry it out too much - it's going to hit it's FG range and be done. If the fermentation is indeed stuck - your yeast were too stressed.

You could add O2, but at this point that would risk oxidation of your good beer. When people make really big beers they will sometimes add O2 at day two or three, but it seems too risky to me at this point - BUT I've never tried it with a stuck fermentation so I cannot say from experience.

The second thing I'd try is adding some boiled bakers yeast or yeast energizer. If that doesn't do anything after 3-4 days - then I'd add a healthy 1L starter culture. This healthy yeast should be able to finish it up - yes this was oxygenated in the starter but the O2 when you pitch will be fairly low. I would pitch the whole thing to make sure you get lots of active unstressed yeast. Pitching just a vial probably wouldn't be enough to make it worthwhile.

 

[MalFet]

Sorry to keep bumping this, but I'm getting some really conflicting information. Some people are suggesting that I make a full-on starter and repitch. Others are warning that this method could lower the gravity too much and dry out the final product.

I can see the logic of both arguments. Would pitching an entire vial without a starter be a happy medium?

You are getting conflicting responses because there are 8 dozen things that could be going on here and everybody is just suggesting what they think it might be. In the absence of some tests (like the fast ferment test I mentioned earlier), all these suggestions can be are guesses.

If you don't want to actually do the leg work to figure out what is going on, start with the least disruptive interventions and work your way up. The first step would be raising the temperature a few degrees and rousting the yeast. Then you can try pitching. Oxygen is needed primarily for sterol synthesis, which shouldn't be part of the equation at this point. Pitching too much yeast will not dry out your beer more than a healthy pitch would have.

 

[Cape Brewing]

. Oxygen is needed primarily for sterol synthesis, which shouldn't be part of the equation at this point.

I am sincerely asking and don't mean this as some wise-ass crack but... can you help me understand that?

My understanding is that yeast needs O2 to reproduce but doesn't necessarily need oxygen to convert sugars to ethanol and CO2. If you have a larger than intended OG and underpitch, wouldn't the yeast use up ever bit of O2 trying to reproduce enough to convert all of the sugar?

If the oxygen content was insufficient, there wouldn't be enough cell count to finish the job (hence the stuck fermentation).

I suppose you could simply add more cell count but I've given simple shots of O2 in the past to goose the yeast and it has always worked out great.

I would make a strong guess that a wort at 1032 still has enough ways to go that the yeast would use up that O2 shot and not leave the end result oxidized and would then provide a healthy enough environment for the existing yeast to finish the job.

Again... Not saying your wrong... I am just hoping you can help me understand it.

 

[MalFet]

I am sincerely asking and don't mean this as some wise-ass crack but... can you help me understand that?

My understanding is that yeast needs O2 to reproduce but doesn't necessarily need oxygen to convert sugars to ethanol and CO2. If you have a larger than intended OG and underpitch, wouldn't the yeast use up ever bit of O2 trying to reproduce enough to convert all of the sugar?

If the oxygen content was insufficient, there wouldn't be enough cell count to finish the job (hence the stuck fermentation).

I suppose you could simply add more cell count but I've given simple shots of O2 in the past to goose the yeast and it has always worked out great.

I would make a strong guess that a wort at 1032 still has enough ways to go that the yeast would use up that O2 shot and not leave the end result oxidized and would then provide a healthy enough environment for the existing yeast to finish the job.

Again... Not saying your wrong... I am just hoping you can help me understand it.

I've never been able to find a good explanation of what triggers yeast dormancy, but I don't understand it to be because the yeast has been "used up". Certainly, he had a smaller than desired pitch (and probably a smaller than desired growth, as well), but a new dose oxygen would only get utilized if he were to get another growth phase. Given that the wort can't sustain his yeast's current population, growth might not even be possible (in which case the oxygen would just be oxidizing his beer). In all likelihood, he's not short on yeast, but short on something else: possibly nitrogen, fermentable sugars, or some micronutrient.

Adding another pitch of yeast might help with those problems, not by simply adding more numbers, but by adding yeast that aren't depleted of whatever is lacking right now. It's not a very precise solution, but it often works. Still better, though, would be actually doing the tests to figure out what, exactly, is happening. Anyway, that's my understanding from reading Briggs and the gang, but I could certainly be wrong.

 

[gurrback]

Ok guys, greatly appreciate your assistance. I'm learning a lot with this one. I will conduct the test and report back in a few days.