Autolysis faster for high OG brews?

[Bryan_85]

I have a barley wine fermenting now, and it has me wondering whether autolysis would occur more quickly in a high gravity beer than a standard gravity beer? I know some ppl have strong views on the existence/relevance of autolysis in brewing, and I don't want to stir that ... What's the longest you'd let your high OG batch sit on the trub (if different from a smaller beer)? For my case, I'm using US05, and the initial gravity was 1.128. Or if there's no difference, that makes it easy.


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[RyanWal26]

Hey Bryan,

I'm just about done reading "Yeast: The Practical Guide to Beer Fermentation" and to say the least i need to read it again because it was filled with such great (and technical) information. Short answer to your question is...i don't know ha ha i don't remember it talking about autolysis and high gravity however, the higher alcohol content can stress the yeast out making them a poor choice to repitch. What you need to worry about are your diacetyl's and a complete fermentation ...if you have a stable OG and you can't taste any diacetyls or other off flavors then i would take the beer off the yeast in order to reduce your risk of autolysis.

Something interesting to note the reason autolysis can ruin a beer is the off flavor compounds the yeast naturally produce. These flavors are stored in the cells and our goals as good yeast stewards is to keep them there (until we remove the yeast from the beer) by limiting their contact with things that make them upset such as alcohol.

I guess the answer to all this is yes autolysis can occur more readily with higher OG beers because the yeast do not like the high alcohol environment. So shorter exposure the better unless of course you can detect diacetyls. Anyone else have more scientific knowledge?

 

[shelly_belly]

As an experiment I left a 1 gallon mead with an original gravity of 1.120 on Lalvin K1v1116 yeast. It was fine until 3.5 years when it began to take on a mercaptan odor which I assumed to be autolysis.

 

[Beernik]

If you were fermenting in a conical, probably because you are creating a deeper column of dead yeast. That's usually what causes autolysis in breweries. The pressure on the yeast in the bottom of the cone causes the cell walls to rupture.

You might be at a higher risk homebrewing because yeast have a higher oxygen demand in a higher gravity beer. Which means if you don't use O2, the yeast might be more stressed. But you are more likely to get diacetyl and esters.

In homebrewing, I wouldn't worry about. It's not likely. It just doesn't happen frequently enough to worry about.

 

[ArcaneXor]

Quickest I have picked it up (not counting a bad batch of Nottingham) was after about four months in a solera-style cider I did years ago. I do occasionally taste it in customer beers, but that's usually a factor of improper yeast handling and poor fermentation.
If you take the beer off the yeast after six weeks, the chances are autolysis are extremely small. I did have a Belgian Dark Strong sitting on the lees for about 3 months earlier this year, and it was fine. Still, no need to take a chance.

 

[Cyclman]

Once it's fermented out, why sit it on the yeast?

I would move it to secondary, with less head space, to age it.

I've done dry hop and fruit beers in primary, 6-8 weeks, high gravity, no problems. But I assume a beer of the gravity you're discussing, you want to let it mellow and age for a while.

I did a Oaked Cherry Quad, 6 or so months in secondary, 8 months so far in bottles, I think it'd win awards. It's fund to experiment with big beers.

 

[Bryan_85]

I bottled the above-mentioned barley wine recently. The final gravity was 1.035. Depending on which abv formula you use, that's 12-15%. I pitched half a package of rehydrated US05 into the 2 gallon batch to help with the bottle carbonation. Being such a big beer, I'm less sure how long it'll take to carbonate. I don't really want to open any this early (only 20 bottles total!), but I'll probably have to open one at some point in the next 2 months just to know how well it's carbonated? Of course once it's adequately carbonated, I'll move to a colder environment (currently it's at 75F). So, how long would you wait before checking? Ideally, once it's carbonated, it spends little time at room temp, right? Is there any rule of thumb for how long big beers take to carb?


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[kh54s10]

I don't have any "rule of thumb" for carbonation time. But I did a strong winter ale that ended up over carbonated. It took close to a month to carbonate and then went further. But the real thing was that it took 7 months to start tasting good and seemed to peak at 2 years. I still have about 12 bottles at over 3 years, it is still pretty good.

So, I would resist the urge to open one for 6 months or longer.

 

[Bryan_85]

I don't have any "rule of thumb" for carbonation time. But I did a strong winter ale that ended up over carbonated. It took close to a month to carbonate and then went further. But the real thing was that it took 7 months to start tasting good and seemed to peak at 2 years. I still have about 12 bottles at over 3 years, it is still pretty good.

So, I would resist the urge to open one for 6 months or longer.

thanks kh54s10. So if I understand you, you're saying to leave at room temp for 6+ months and then, if tasting adequately carbonated, move to cool storage? Just to play the devil's advocate here, couldn't the beer carb in 2-4 months? If it did that, then isn't it preferable to move it to cool storage at that point?

This issue seems like a function one's preferences between knowing accurately when the beer is carbonated and the # of beers remaining after all the carbonation "checks." For example, here are 2 extremes:
1) Don't open any beers to check for carbonation
pros: maximizes # of beers that remain to be enjoyed later
cons: all of the beers might be undercarbonated OR they might have carbed quickly and sat unnecessarily long at room temp
2) Check carb levels frequently (eg weekly or monthly)
pros: would be able to see the evolution of the carb level, and therefore able to put the beer into cold storage at the "right" time
cons: fewer beers left to enjoy at the end.

Neither of those extremes are wrong, but it seems like many brewers would opt for something in the middle. Personally, I'm hoping that I can taste the beer once before moving to cool storage.

I'd really appreciate hearing others' predictions regarding how long it'd take for this beer to carb!

 

[Bryan_85]

I'd really appreciate hearing others' predictions regarding how long it'd take for this beer to carb!

Anybody else have any experience bottle carbonating a high-gravity beer with US05?

 

[broadbill]

The think the simple route is not put them in cold storage and let them age/bottle condition however they go. There isn't any reason to expect them to over-carbonate assuming they aren't infected or you over-dosed with priming sugar.

 

[WoodlandBrew]

You may find this post relevant. It's the effect of ABV on yeast viability.

http://www.woodlandbrew.com/2013/01/abv-effects-on-yeast.html

 

[Bryan_85]

You may find this post relevant. It's the effect of ABV on yeast viability.

http://www.woodlandbrew.com/2013/01/abv-effects-on-yeast.html

thanks WoodlandBrew, that's interesting. I was surprised by how high the death rate was for the higher ABV solutions. Of course it'll vary by yeast, but how is this reconciled with the fact that most ppl who brew barley wines bottle condition for months? It seems like after 2 weeks, very little additional carbonation would occur...? Maybe the answer is that high-ABV beers are traditionally force carbonated (instead of bottle carbonated)?

 

[WoodlandBrew]

Good questions! I can't give you a complete answer. Yes, alcohol tolerance will vary a little bit from strain to strain, but for the most part they are all about the same. It would be interesting to preform this test on a yeast that has been bread for high alcohol tolerance. Most of the carbonation will occur within the first week. The months of conditioning time will mostly help the flavors mellow, blend, and mature.

 

[Beernik]

A lot of big ABV beers that are bottle carbed and conditioned have a second pitching of fresh yeast.

If you don't pitch fresh yeast, it's like asking someone to do 50 push-ups after running a marathon. Of course it's going to take longer than if they only jogged a quarter mile.

 

[Bryan_85]

A lot of big ABV beers that are bottle carbed and conditioned have a second pitching of fresh yeast.

If you don't pitch fresh yeast, it's like asking someone to do 50 push-ups after running a marathon. Of course it's going to take longer than if they only jogged a quarter mile.

...and then the newly pitched yeast do all of the carbonating in the first 2 weeks before they're all dead (in a 12% beer), I guess?

 

[Bryan_85]

Good questions! I can't give you a complete answer. Yes, alcohol tolerance will vary a little bit from strain to strain, but for the most part they are all about the same. It would be interesting to preform this test on a yeast that has been bread for high alcohol tolerance. Most of the carbonation will occur within the first week. The months of conditioning time will mostly help the flavors mellow, blend, and mature.

The link posted above did not give me the impression that the tested solutions were bottled. If that's true, does anyone have an intuition as to which way the bottle environment (higher pressure, less oxygen, ...) would affect yeast death rate: faster or slower?