Attention All Extract Brewers - Harsh Bitterness and Aftertaste

[agroff383]

Let us know how it tastes after a few weeks in the bottle. It sounds promising. In my experience with the harsh bitter aftertaste it didn't show up until after it was carbonated. I could not detect it at all at bottling.

I can say for the majority of my batches (7 I have drank so far) this is also the case.

I have also noticed that as the beer comes up to temp after pouring in a glass, the bitterness will fade.

I have been using spring water (first 2 batches) and tap water for the ones since then. Up until this past Sunday I always added a teaspoon of gypsum, I believe that this pushed the mineral content over the acceptable level being able to detect in the beer.

But I have also noticed that as the beer sits in the bottle the bitterness goes away. I had a cream ale in the bottle now for almost 2 months, I could barely drink it when it was younger but now it tastes better, still not good, but better. My first beer, a blonde ale, still is harsh after 4 months of aging!

So thanks everyone that has posted thus far I am keeping an eye on this thread.

 

[jescholler]

At any rate, I got my water tested last week and this is what I got:
Ca+2: 73
Mg+2: 26
SO4-2: 3
Na+: 11
Cl-: 2
HCO3-: 360

Hard with bicarbonates through the roof. Looks like the chloride sulfate ratio favors bitterness a little bit too.

I would guess your astringency is coming from the bicarbonates in the steep (I'm assuming you use steeping grains). Unless you're using an extract that's high in sodium and sulfate, I don't expect the problem to be what I described in the OP.

So thanks everyone that has posted thus far I am keeping an eye on this thread.

I'm glad to see everyone is getting a lot of value from this thread.

 

[Bobby_M]

I am also wondering if carbon filtration effects the mineral profile...

A guy in my club sent unfiltered and carbon filtered samples to ward lab. Stay tuned.

 

[Apollo]

I've done 13 extracts, drinking the 13th right now and only two batches (7th and 13th) have had this flavor. In batch 7, the flavor did not diminish with time, in fact it seemed like to got worse with time.

Last night is when I realized that my water is what caused the off flavor. Here's my water profile as far as I can tell.

Sodium: 46
Mineral Content: 392
Hardness: 187
pH: 7.5

 

[jescholler]

I've done 13 extracts, drinking the 13th right now and only two batches (7th and 13th) have had this flavor. In batch 7, the flavor did not diminish with time, in fact it seemed like to got worse with time.

Last night is when I realized that my water is what caused the off flavor. Here's my water profile as far as I can tell.

Sodium: 46
Mineral Content: 392
Hardness: 187
pH: 7.5

Can you elaborate on "mineral content"? The sodium seems pretty low to begin with. Did batches 7 and 13 have a common extract manufacturer? Were they brewed at the same time of the year? I'm curious as to why it was only batches 7 and 13.

 

[boredatwork]

Water profile is specific to recipe. That is one explanation for only seeing the off flavors in certain beers. Bad water for one type of beer can be perfect water for another type of beer.

 

[Apollo]

Can you elaborate on "mineral content"? The sodium seems pretty low to begin with. Did batches 7 and 13 have a common extract manufacturer? Were they brewed at the same time of the year? I'm curious as to why it was only batches 7 and 13.

I have an e-mail into my water company for more specifics. The info I gave is what is posted online in the monthly report.

#7 1/25/09 Brewers Best German Oktoberfest with the dry yeast that came with the box. At that point I didn't record what brand/type, probably Muntons.
6.6# plain light ME
8 oz Crystal 60L
4 oz Crystal 20L

#13 7/25/09 Brewers Best Continental Pilsner
3.3# plain light ME
2# plain light DME
12 oz dextrine malt

The process was the same for all my beers. All of my brews have used carbon filtered water from my frig.

 

[Apollo]

Here's the average values from Jan 08 thru today.

Calcium = 67.5 mg/L or ppm
Magnesium = 12.5 mg/L or ppm
Sulfate = 134.5 mg/L or ppm
Sodium = 39.4 mg/L or ppm
Chloride = 13.43 mg/L or ppm
Bicarbonate Alkalinity = 145 mg/L or ppm

 

[jescholler]

Using Palmer's spreadsheet, your alkalinity is good for 10-15 SRM beers. The sulfate concentration is pretty high and the sulfate to chloride ratio is 10:1 (very high). I would say your water is good for more bitter all grain beers (like an ESB) as long as you add some calcium chloride to get the sulfate to chloride ratio down.

For extract brewing, you will probably be in trouble if you pick up a good amount of sodium from the extract. When I contacted the extract manufacturer for the extract I was using, I found out that it had 160ppm sodium. I'm pretty sure that's what was causing my problem.

Is it possible that for your two bad batches, you used an extract high in sodium? Did you use the same extract on other batches?

 

[jescholler]

Just put one of each of the experiment beers into the fridge. Probably mid next week SWMBO and I will do a blind tasting. Sometime after that, I'll do a blind tasting with some friends who are unaware of the experiment. Stay tuned!

 

[Sharkeydude]

Would Five Star 5.2 stabilizer be a possible solution to the problem? I have the same issues and have searched here to find some brewers using 5.2 to stabilize their water in a mash or even campden tablets to control the wild yeasties. Would either of these work for an extract application?

 

[jescholler]

Those wouldn't solve the problem that I'm trying to experiment with here. I believe my problem is due to high concentrations of both sodium and sulfate. Neither of those would fix that.

They would however fix some other similar problems. It would be possible to get an astringency from your steeping grains if your alkalinity was way off. I believe that would give a "sucking on a tea bag" property to the beer. The campden tablets would remove chlorine (and I believe chloramines). Those two would give a plastic or bandage like taste to the beer, sometimes present when you burp.

 

[Sharkeydude]

How funny, the threads that I researched here said that using both 5.2 and campden did away with the very flavors you said using them would cause. I'm so confused! LOL! I'm keeping track of this thread to see how your progress comes along. I've got the same issues and trying to find a solution as well. Until then, I'll grab one of these off flavored beers and wait.

 

[jescholler]

How funny, the threads that I researched here said that using both 5.2 and campden did away with the very flavors you said using them would cause. I'm so confused! LOL!

Maybe I didn't explain that as well as I should have.

Using campden will do away with the plastic/bandage/medicinal flavor.
Using 5.2 may do away with the "sucking on a tea bag" astringency.

 

[Sharkeydude]

I got ya. Sorry for the confusion. I appreciate you guys that have a better handle on the chemical side of things than I do. I love this hobby and really have learned more than I ever expected from these threads.

 

[thesanch]

Let us know how it tastes after a few weeks in the bottle. It sounds promising.

So my Best Bitter has been in the bottle now for 4.5 weeks and chilled for 1.5 It tastes amazing. By far my best beer out of the 3 that I've bottled. Changing from spring water to RO/Distilled definitely improved the taste. No harsh bitterness. Just a clean tasting beer that allows you to focus on the hops and malt rather than a twang after you take a gulp. My father in law agrees!

 

[jescholler]

So my Best Bitter has been in the bottle now for 4.5 weeks and chilled for 1.5 It tastes amazing. By far my best beer out of the 3 that I've bottled. Changing from spring water to RO/Distilled definitely improved the taste. No harsh bitterness. Just a clean tasting beer that allows you to focus on the hops and malt rather than a twang after you take a gulp. My father in law agrees!

That's awesome. Congrats!

 

[jescholler]

SWMBO and I just got done with our 1st blind tasting of the finished beers from the experiment. The results weren't as definitive as I would have liked, but the tap water beer did have that character that inspired this experiment (although I wouldn't call it harsh). SWMBO preferred the tap water beer, but admitted that her tastes are likely different than most.

The distilled water beer was a smoother beer to me, and was less bitter than I would expect with an IBU:OG ratio of 0.73. It was slightly tart to me, indicating that the pH is too low.

After continuing to finish the two beers from the tasting, the tap water beer became unpalatable while the distilled water beer was still smooth.

While neither of the beers were perfect, I definitely preferred the distilled water beer for its smoothness. I also think that I have correctly identified the quality that I didn't like in the beer that inspired this experiment. If I were to continue to use this extract, I would probably still use distilled water, but add some salts (either chalk or baking soda) to raise the pH.

I still have two of each of the beers from the experiment, so I'll be refrigerating them for another blind tasting with some fellow brewers (probably in 2 weeks+). Sometime after that, I'll be posting an official conclusion to the experiment.

 

[AmmoHouse]

This is very good info!
I've tasted a weird aftertaste in my brews also and I never thought about my water.
I'm off a well and I can't believe I never thought about that, drinking from the faucet tastes fine.
I've had others taste my brew and they don't seem to taste the same thing I do...its just an aftertaste and I know its there!
When I get back to the states I'm definately going to try store bought water and see if that makes a difference!
again...thanks!

 

[thesanch]

AmmoHouse, don't just buy buy any old water from the store since some of that water is just bottled municipal water. Look for RO (Reverse Osmosis) or Distilled water. Since both processes strip the water of all minerals and impurities. You'll get some/most of those minerals back from the extract that you use.

 

[Hova]

I too have had some of my extract batches turn out like this. I was thinking of trying distilled water for my next batch. For anyone who uses distilled whater, what is the best way to get a bulk of it and does it cost much per batch. Do you just go to the supermarket and buy 7 one gallon jugs.

 

[thesanch]

I too have had some of my extract batches turn out like this. I was thinking of trying distilled water for my next batch. For anyone who uses distilled whater, what is the best way to get a bulk of it and does it cost much per batch. Do you just go to the supermarket and buy 7 one gallon jugs.

Yep, I get Safeway's Refreshe brand for under a $1 a gallon. I just typically buy 6 gallons and I've never needed more.

 

[Toivo]

I have made three extract batches of beer and my son insists there is a aftertaste in each one. After reading this thread I went and got as much info as I could about our water supply. I hope someone can help me interpert the numbers. Also I know from having a hot tub the ph is over 9 and the alkalinity is over 180. From the water report I have chloride is 98, Hardness as CACO3 is 279, nitrate as N 2.3, sodium 40, and sulfate 12. Any help would be appreciated.

 

[jescholler]

Your alkalinity is rather high. It would be good for very dark beers like stouts and porters. The problem with high alkalinity is that it creates a high pH in your steeping water with certain grains and grain to water ratios. If you use a lot of water with your steeping grains and lighter grains, your pH will be too high and you will extract tannins. This can result in an astringency in the aftertaste.

If you use a smaller amount of water (1-2 quarts/lb of grain) and mainly dark grains like chocolate and roasted barley, those grains will bring your pH down into an acceptable range and you will not extract tannins.

Can you give a little more information about your recipes. Did you use steeping grains? What kinds? How much? How much water?

Your sodium and sulfate levels look low enough not to cause any problems, so unless you're getting a lot of those from your extract, the source of our problems are probably different.

 

[Toivo]

Thanks for the reply. I have done batches with only 1 to 2 pounds of grains in them. I am in the process of getting set up to do all grain. In the mean time what would I do to lower the alkalinity?

 

[jescholler]

Thanks for the reply. I have done batches with only 1 to 2 pounds of grains in them. I am in the process of getting set up to do all grain. In the mean time what would I do to lower the alkalinity?

The short answer is to use part tap water and part distilled or reverse osmosis (RO) water. Both of those have nearly all of the minerals removed so you can consider the mineral content 0. As far as how much to dilute it, if you don't want to do all of the research and number crunching, 50/50 would be a good place to start.

If you do want to do all of the number crunching and research, there is some good information on how to adjust your water to get the proper water profile for any style of beer. I would recommend reading chapter 15 of How to Brew:
http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter15.html
Near the end he gives a spreadsheet where you can enter in your water's mineral content, adjust it by diluting and/or adding brewing salts, and then it will tell you what the alkalinity will be.

 

[jescholler]

The last blind tasting for this experiment was done last night. Here are the results along with a conclusion for the experiment.

Results (Continued)
All tasting of the beer was done blind. It turns out that half of the people actually preferred the tap water beer over the distilled water beer. As I stated in an earlier thread, SWMBO was one of those, but she couldn't describe why. She tends to like more bitter beers, so maybe the higher sulfate content of the tap water beer accentuated the bitterness. The other person that liked the tap water beer described it as smoother and noticed a slightly darker color. That person described the distilled water beer as not having an aftertaste, less body, and sharp. They thought they detected a bit of chlorine, but they weren't certain.

I along with another one of the blind tasters preferred the distilled water beer. I definitely detected the harsh quality in the tap water beer that inspired me to do this experiment. To me, the tap water beer was sharp, harsh, and biting. The distilled water beer was smooth and not harsh at all. The other taster who preferred the distilled water beer described it as light, low carbonation, and no aftertaste. They described the tap water beer as slightly bitter in the back of the throat (aftertaste).

Conclusion
All brewers must be cautious of the sodium and sulfate levels in their brewing water. The extract brewer has an extra burden because they also inherit the water profile that the extract was made with.

High levels of sodium and sulfate (in my case over the 200ppm level) can lead to a beer that is harsh and astringent to some people. Others may actually prefer a beer made with this water. I am convinced that the harshness in my batch that inspired this experiment was due to high levels of sodium and sulfate.

Using all distilled water may not be the best answer either. It may lack minerals and the final pH may be off.

If you notice that your beer has a harsh aftertaste, and you are an extract brewer, try brewing with all distilled or RO water. This will solve the harshness problem, but you may need to tweak the water to get the proper pH.

 

[Austinhomebrew]

I use distilled water when I make extract brews as well. Or at least carbon filtered water.

Forrest

 

[helibrewer]

I have made three extract batches of beer and my son insists there is a aftertaste in each one. After reading this thread I went and got as much info as I could about our water supply. I hope someone can help me interpert the numbers. Also I know from having a hot tub the ph is over 9 and the alkalinity is over 180. From the water report I have chloride is 98, Hardness as CACO3 is 279, nitrate as N 2.3, sodium 40, and sulfate 12. Any help would be appreciated.

Your Chloride and Sulfate are not well balanced. I would use a water calculator and consider some Epsom (MgSO2) to balance that ratio a bit. I use BeerSmith to build my water profiles from RO.

 

[boscobeans]

I do not know much about the science of water involved in brewing. I know what works best for me when I do all grain.

I was just wondering about the following:

The chemistry of water is essential in all steps of brewing. Do any of the producers of extracts give the water analysis for the water they use?
The extracts are made with distillation processes of differing methods leaving many if not all of the minerals and such behind as only H2O is taken from the original wort.

Do you need to add water with a balanced profile to LME or DME that may have been produced with a balanced water to begin with?


????? bosco