Are those fans still working?

[Everhard]

Hi all, I'm in the final stages of building my electric brewery, just about to build an exhaust hood, need to source a fan. I've been reading thru the posts and it seems like a lot of people are using fans that are not rated for temps above 140f or for moisture.
I'm curious to hear how those fans have held up?
Here's an example that some one posted back in 2015:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004YXDQZU/?tag=forumyield-20

Thanks, E.

 

[MrBaloo]

I am forgoing the hood in my brewery. Using the steam slayer.

 

[Everhard]

I considered the steam Slayer but I don't have an endless supply of water so it's not a viable option unless I can recycle (cool the water) and reuse it. Which adds more complications and costs so for now I'm going with the basic hood concept to get up and running and I'll look at other options once I've had this system running a bit.
I've just made the hood, just debating what fan to go with hence the question.

E.

 

[sicktght311]

I'm only running 1650watt 120v, so i went with a Broan kitchen exhaust hood that i vent directly out a converted window. Works great at 250cfm since its a straight shot out the wall with no bends or turns

 

[augiedoggy]

Ive been brewing in front of a window with a double 12" widow fan in the top of the window and a foamboard hood for 6 years , never an issue except ive had condensation drip out of them and run down the window at times. the motors werent sealed YMMV

 

[Everhard]

Thanks y'all, well I think I'll pull the plug on an inline off Amazon and see how that goes. Literally the last bit I have to order to go operational now. Excitement level building..

E.

 

[kal]

You've already ordered, but for what it's worth I've been using this one since 2009:

https://shop.theelectricbrewery.com/pages/vortex-vtx600-6-powerfan-452-cfm

I even bought mine used on ebay. I also confirmed with the manufacturer that it's suitable for exhausting steam for my purpose, so all good!

If I had to buy again, I'd get the same.

Kal

 

[bracconiere]

i have a broan hood over my 15 gal pot on the stove, and when it gets really bad, i run three box fans in the windows around the house...

 

[Everhard]

Thanks Kal, Ya I actually looked at your option - I used your website/info extensively while building my system.
I was being cheap when looking for a fan option because I haven't fully decided what will be the ultimate method for getting rid of steam but I didn't want to delay either! So to get operational I've gone with a simple cheap option for now while I consider what I'll do.
Seen many great ideas out there, which has given me some ideas, my goal is a system that will not require venting out the building but doesn't use copious amounts of water to do it. I think it'll be my winter project.

E.

 

[kal]

Steam condensers seem to be picking up "steam" (ha! pardon the pun). One thing that a lot of people don't seem to realize is how hot your brew room may get when using one. This would be a big concern for me and never seems to be mentioned.

Remember that kettles running hot create a lot of heat, even if there's no steam entering the room anywhere. The kettles are like giant radiators giving off heat.

One of the things I like about having a vent system in my basement brewery is that it I'm bringing in air from the outside to replace the steam I'm venting out. The air coming in will always be cooler than the air you're evacuating and this helps keep the room temp down. How much this helps of course depends on where you live. In my case it's cold 6+ months of the year and gets to -20C (-4F) in the winters here. This sort of cold weather is actually PERFECT for vent system brewing as the cold air coming in completely offsets the temperature of the kettles and my brew room is around 65F on the coldest winter days. Some people in colder climates setting up breweries inside the home have been concerned with the room getting too cold during the colder months of the year, but it's just not possible - brewing with a vent system in the frigid north is perfect and comfortable!

Now if I was to use a steam condenser, much of that heat would be in the room and would make the room uncomfortably all hot year round in addition to wasting a lot of water.

Keep this lack of heat removal in mind if considering a steam condenser. You could also use a vent but that seems to defeat the whole purpose.

This is all completely aside the fact that steam condenser systems do not remove as much DMS from the beer since you're boiling with the cover on and only boiling off a very little amount. Depending on who you believe, this can have flavour impacts (more obvious short term) as well as long term stability impacts (less immediately obvious).

Some argue that ventilation system are expensive, but factor in the cost of all that water (plus the environmental impact) of using a steam condenser when considering what you plan on doing. Even if a vent system is more expensive up front in terms of equipment, there's a point where over time the additional water costs will cross what you paid for the vent system and overtake it. Vent systems do use electricity (steam condensers do not) but most ventilation fans are relatively low current and will cost only a few pennies to run on a typical 60-90 min boil. The amount of water used during that time can be significant.

My 2 cents! Either way, good luck!

Kal

 

[augiedoggy]

Steam condensers seem to be picking up "steam" (ha! pardon the pun). One thing that a lot of people don't seem to realize is how hot your brew room may get when using one. This would be a big concern for me and never seems to be mentioned.

Remember that kettles running hot create a lot of heat, even if there's no steam entering the room anywhere. The kettles are like giant radiators giving off heat.

One of the things I like about having a vent system in my basement brewery is that it I'm bringing in air from the outside to replace the steam I'm venting out. The air coming in will always be cooler than the air you're evacuating and this helps keep the room temp down. How much this helps of course depends on where you live. In my case it's cold 6+ months of the year and gets to -20C (-4F) in the winters here. This sort of cold weather is actually PERFECT for vent system brewing as the cold air coming in completely offsets the temperature of the kettles and my brew room is around 65F on the coldest winter days. Some people in colder climates setting up breweries inside the home have been concerned with the room getting too cold during the colder months of the year, but it's just not possible - brewing with a vent system in the frigid north is perfect and comfortable!

Now if I was to use a steam condenser, much of that heat would be in the room and would make the room uncomfortably all hot year round in addition to wasting a lot of water.

Keep this lack of heat removal in mind if considering a steam condenser. You could also use a vent but that seems to defeat the whole purpose.

This is all completely aside the fact that steam condenser systems do not remove as much DMS from the beer since you're boiling with the cover on and only boiling off a very little amount. Depending on who you believe, this can have flavour impacts (more obvious short term) as well as long term stability impacts (less immediately obvious).

Some argue that ventilation system are expensive, but factor in the cost of all that water (plus the environmental impact) of using a steam condenser when considering what you plan on doing. Even if a vent system is more expensive up front in terms of equipment, there's a point where over time the additional water costs will cross what you paid for the vent system and overtake it. Vent systems do use electricity (steam condensers do not) but most ventilation fans are relatively low current and will cost only a few pennies to run on a typical 60-90 min boil. The amount of water used during that time can be significant.

My 2 cents! Either way, good luck!

Kal

I agree, you end up with a lot of warm humid smelly air. I have helped brew on a stout 3bbl system with the stout condenser and we ended up opening all the doors for this reason.
At my brewpub, even with out sealed lid and vented exhaust pipe on the boil kettle we get a lot of steam and humidity in our brewery. I honestly preferred the hood on my home brewing system.

 

[Vale71]

This is all completely aside the fact that steam condenser systems do not remove as much DMS from the beer since you're boiling with the cover on and only boiling off a very little amount. Depending on who you believe, this can have flavour impacts (more obvious short term) as well as long term stability impacts (less immediately obvious).

I don't know where you got that information but a condenser hood will remove just as much DMS as a regular vented hood, provided somebody wasn't so daft as build it so that it will carry the condensate back into the kettle, which would be a major design flaw in any case. Also any type of cover will obviously lead to an increase in evaporation compared to the same kettle with the same heat source but with a completely exposed top surface, which is the main reason why boil kettles in large commercial systems are always hooded (and insulated). That and workplace safety of course.

 

[augiedoggy]

I don't know where you got that information but a condenser hood will remove just as much DMS as a regular vented hood, provided somebody wasn't so daft as build it so that it will carry the condensate back into the kettle, which would be a major design flaw in any case. Also any type of cover will obviously lead to an increase in evaporation compared to the same kettle with the same heat source but with a completely exposed top surface, which is the main reason why boil kettles in large commercial systems are always hooded (and insulated). That and workplace safety of course.

By hooded you mean covered or sealed with only a condenser stack and not open with an actual exhaust hood over it right?

I will say there is quite a bit less evap with these systems than with an open top kettle for sure.. I say this because we have a stout style with the stack (the vented one not the one with the condensate sprayer nozzles) and our boiloff is much less with the lid closed than with it open. This makes sense, since much of the steam turns back into liquid on the lid and runs back down into the kettle. Even with the boil kettles that have the pitched top to the vent this is still somewhat or an issue. That said we have no issues with DMS whatsoever
The other downside no one has mentioned is the higher likelihood of boilovers with a lid on and vent or condensate stack.

Most homebrewing setups have this steam condensate vent plumbed into the upper sidewall of the kettle which is not the ideal placement although they still seem to work well and are becoming more popular.. But for what reason?

 

[kal]

augiedoggy is correct. A kettle with a hood results in less evap for the reasons he stated. In fact, many of the sellers of systems that include steam condensators tout this as a benefit as they say you'll end up with more beer because the evap level is lower. The less you evaporate, the more DMS and other stuff you leave behind (whether you consider that a concern or not).

Kal

 

[Vale71]

I will say there is quite a bit less evap with these systems than with an open top kettle for sure.. I say this because we have a stout style with the stack (the vented one not the one with the condensate sprayer nozzles) and our boiloff is much less with the lid closed than with it open. This makes sense, since much of the steam turns back into liquid on the lid and runs back down into the kettle. Even with the boil kettles that have the pitched top to the vent this is still somewhat or an issue.

Do you observe a stronger boil with the lid closed than with the lid open or the other way around?

In order for much of the steam to turn back into liquid and run back into the kettle you need to dissipate the energy that condensation releases and you cannot do this effectively just over the lid's surface. On the other hand you'll have to consider that the lid will reflect the energy radiating from the boiling liquid's surface back into the liquid itself, thus altering the energy balance in favor of a stronger boil. The energy that cannot be released by radiation will have to be released as water vapor, thus increasing vaporization. The metal lid itself will of course radiate energy as soon as it heats up but the emissivity coefficient of metal is quite lower than that of water (the more polished the lower the emittance BTW) so the overall balance will be in favor of more vaporization. And then there is of course the thermal conductivity of the material the hood is made of which can be quite low if the hood is insulated or quite high if it's a simple steel sheet but will always be higher than in the absence of any cover whatsover.
In any case, it's impossible to observe a stronger boil and have a decrease in boil-off rate unles you're actually using an external condenser capable of dissipating more heat than would be lost through the open surface of the kettle and then for some reason you are routing enough of the condensate back into the kettle.
This of course is based on the premise that the performance of the heating element remains unaltered i.e. only one variable is changed (lid on or off). If you change two variables at the same time than the comparison becomes a litlle bit more compicated (you'll have to normalize for heat input).

 

[augiedoggy]

ok I understand theres a lot of science behind and thank you for a very technical science book explanation about it.

But in relationship to the conversation at hand and the use of the steam slayer design in a typical homebrewing setup,
With a homebrewing steam slayer, what is the size of the opening for the steam to escape? 1.5"? and are these home brewing kettles insulated? not typically. Do you really think the steam slayer or homemade version made with a 1.5" or even a larger 2" tee mounted in the side of a soup kettle with a lid on it is going to work so effectively that it wont effect the boil off rate and therefor the amount of steam and gases which may be turned back into liquid? because thats really the conversation at hand here. I would surmise anyone using one of these will tell you that it does in fact effect the boiloff rate by decreasing it, not increasing it. But I would love to hear some real world testimonials from folks using them?

To answer your question, yes I observe a much stronger boil with the lid on and much less boil off. my boil kettle is not insulated as many arent when your talking nanobrewing sizes and the kettle as well as the lid are polished stainless. the vent is a 6" size and the kettle holds 145 gallons and is about 29" wide.

 

[Vale71]

In relationship to the conversation at hand the system will still be governed by the same laws no matter its size, namely those of thermodynamics, wouldn't you agree?

The size of the vent hole is totally irrelevant as without any measurable pressure build-up (you're boiling at atmospheric pressure, right?) all the steam will flow through it, it'll just flow proportionally faster the smaller the hole. For any steam not to escape the enclosure either one of two things will have to happen:

- pressure increases
- steam is turned back into liquid releasing 2257 Joule of energy per gram of vapor and that energy has to then go somewhere else

All that matters really is the energy balance, keeping in mind that no energy can be really lost (in the sense of disappear into nothingness). Every single Joule that doesn't get turned into water vapor has to be accounted for, no exceptions.

 

[kal]

The size of the vent hole is totally irrelevant as without any measurable pressure build-up (you're boiling at atmospheric pressure, right?) all the steam will flow through it

No it won't. Much of it hit the ceiling and side walls and drops back into solution.

This is why manufacturers of steam condensers say that boil off rate is greatly reduced. An example quote from one such manufacturer:

"During testing, our team found that with our steam condenser, there was only a 5% boil-off compared to over 11% with a standard open-style boil kettle."

How vigorous the boil is only one factor out of many. The science you're presenting is incomplete.

Either way, you should take your discussion over here: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/...denser-no-overhead-ventilation-needed.636955/

Kal

 

[Vale71]

Water "hitting" the ceiling and "dropping back into solution"? Do you have the slightest idea of what is involved in water vaporization and condensation? That was a rhetorical question, by the way.

I wouldn't believe an advertising blurb from Spike more than I would believe that Santa exists, if I were you.

And it's not up to you to tell me where I should take my discussions so please don't.

 

[augiedoggy]

Water "hitting" the ceiling and "dropping back into solution"? Do you have the slightest idea of what is involved in water vaporization and condensation? That was a rhetorical question, by the way.

I wouldn't believe an advertising blurb from Spike more than I would believe that Santa exists, if I were you.

And it's not up to you to tell me where I should take my discussions so please don't.

well theres also the fact that my actual experience coincides with what hes saying. The boil off rate is dramatically decreased with a closed top and vent no question about it.
and we are kinda taking the thread off topic. If you were to present your theory in the thread kal suggested you would get a lot of feedback

 

[TheMadKing]

Water "hitting" the ceiling and "dropping back into solution"? Do you have the slightest idea of what is involved in water vaporization and condensation? That was a rhetorical question, by the way.

I wouldn't believe an advertising blurb from Spike more than I would believe that Santa exists, if I were you.

And it's not up to you to tell me where I should take my discussions so please don't.

It's simple, a smaller opening on the kettle means more surface area that the steam has to touch before it escapes. Heat is lost through conduction through the metal surfaces it comes into contact with, resulting in condensation that then falls back into the boil and reduces boil off.

Why are you so incredibly rude and condescending to everyone?

Show me on the dolly where the mean homebrewer touched you [emoji6]

 

[Vale71]

I give up as I'm obviously just wasting my time. I've given you some very valuable pointers but you insist in wallowing in your complete ignorance of the subject matter and I've had enough.

As for being rude and condescending, while I don't think anybody can be faulted for being ignorant of something, I have no sympathy for those who stubbornly persevere in their ignorance just because they're not capable of admitting that they are wrong. If that comes off as rude or condescending than that's too bad, I also don't believe that grown man and women need to be always told that they are right lest their feelings get hurt. I only do that with babies and I'm still not okay with that (but I'll admit to not being particularly good with children so...).

 

[augiedoggy]

ok now we are really off topic.