I've been reading a lot about cleaning and sanitizing procedures and products. I have been reading a lot of pro brewers clean with an alkaline cleaner like PBW, rinse, use an acid wash like acid cleaner #5 (or BS Remover for home brewer), rinse and then use Saniclean. What is the purpose of using saniclean if the kettle is not going to be used right away? Even if it is used right away, why sanitize something that is going to have boiling wort in it?
Anyone sanitize hot side equipment after cleaning
- Thread starter h22lude
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I don't sanitize my BK but I do thoroughly rinse my pump, CFC, and hoses used in chilling/whirlpooling w/ SaniClean after each brew. I also sanitize my CFC again before each use w/ StarSan. I also wipe out my BK & HLT w/ a paper towel soaked w/ StarSan at the beginning of each brew. Additionally, I run the boiling wort through my system for 5-10 minutes before initiating cooling.
stella_tigre
Queen of the Upper Mississippi
I sanitize the spigot, as it's my impression that it doesn't necessarily get hot enough to be safe. I suppose that's true of sight glasses etc too? Don't have any of those.....I do it right before the boil.
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I suppose it depends on if the kettle doubles as a mash tun.
IMO, any sanitizing done right after brewing and then storing your equipment (hot or cold side) is just a waste of sanitizer. Once it is dry or rinsed off it is now doing nothing.
Clean well, store, depending on how dirty the storage, clean again, sanitize right before use following the sanitizer instructions.
I have never sanitize hot side equipment though parts that don't get real hot may need it. The only thing I have is the ball valve and I do sanitize it before putting on the tubing.
Clean well, store, depending on how dirty the storage, clean again, sanitize right before use following the sanitizer instructions.
I have never sanitize hot side equipment though parts that don't get real hot may need it. The only thing I have is the ball valve and I do sanitize it before putting on the tubing.
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h22lude
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I may start doing something like this. I emailed Five Star and they even recommended using Saniclean after PBW and BS Remover.
Any reason you use StarSan and Saniclean?
I'm not sure why it is done but it seems like a lot of pro brewers (at least the ones on the pro brewing forum) sanitize after cleaning.
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I can't think of why they would, Unless they would be putting something in there right away. But if not???
They also have to meet Food Service Codes and Regulations and be ready for an inspection at any given time.
Their process and requirements are quite different than that of the average home brewer.
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h22lude
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Yeah I'm not sure either. I did read someone say they technically couldn't use saniclean because it isn't labeled as a sanitizer so maybe they are required to sanitize after and right before use even on the hot side.
I use SaniClean because it works well in hot water and with extended exposure.
StarSan works well in cool water & it cleans copper wet well(CFC).
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h22lude
Well-Known Member
Saniclean doesn't clean copper the same? I actually need to clean an old IC and was going to use saniclean
I've found that soaking copper in StarSan for an hour or so will remove almost all the "crud" that can accumulate.
Prior to each use I simply fill my CFC w/ StarSan and close off the outlet. Just before use I clear out the StarSan. I let my pump run & empty the first outflow into a bucket until I'm getting clear wort. Then I connect to the Spin Cycle on my BK and run w/o chilling water for a few minutes. This initiates the whirlpool. Finally, I start chilling.
I still flush thoroughly w/ SanClean after each brew day.
Prior to each use I simply fill my CFC w/ StarSan and close off the outlet. Just before use I clear out the StarSan. I let my pump run & empty the first outflow into a bucket until I'm getting clear wort. Then I connect to the Spin Cycle on my BK and run w/o chilling water for a few minutes. This initiates the whirlpool. Finally, I start chilling.
I still flush thoroughly w/ SanClean after each brew day.
SGTSparty
Well-Known Member
No experience here but just noticed something. Is it possible that there is something about the Acid Cleaner #5 or Beer Stone remover as a cleanser that requires sanitizer afterwards? That seems to be a big difference in their process vs. the average home brewer. Did Five Star mention anything specifically regarding the BS remover?
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h22lude
Well-Known Member
So you basically use Saniclean after you brew and StarSan before you brew. I use PBW through everything but I think I need a good acid wash through my CFC. I think I'm going to do pbw, rinse, bs remover, rinse saniclean and rinse. Then next brew day I'll let starsan sit in the chiller.
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h22lude
Well-Known Member
Yeah that could be. Both are acids though. No they didn't really get into depth about it. They just recommended bs remover then saniclean/starsan.
Some of it could simply have to do with the "Clean in Place" necessary for a commercial scale operation. They are not cleaning a single vessel like a home brewer. They are cleaning a system that is set up already and one vessel leads to the next with pipes and valves that you cannot get at very easily. So, it may simply make sense to run each chemical through the entire system from beginning to end.
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h22lude
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Yeah that's a good possibility though five star knew I was a home brewer and still recommended I use Saniclean.
dstockwell
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Have never sanitized BK.
Yeah - I rarely "sanitize" my hot side stuff. Maybe once a year I will give everything a really good cleaning and maybe a dunk in star san or something like that. Perhaps valves on a kettle...... maybe those - especially if they are ball valves or something.
But, sounds like they are just trying to sell you something. I like 5 star..... but, they still sell 5.2 pH stabilizer, and that is flat out a deceptive product in almost every testable way.... so, sometimes it is just about the money.
Why sanitise anything prior to cold side? Just make sure it is all cleaned and rinsed well after use. You don't want it all dirty, but it doesn't need to be as 'sanitised' as the cold side and I imagine more problems have been created by trying to bleach the mash tun. Just have a regular and effective cleaning regime for these items. My kettle at home gets sanitised only because I use it to hold the peracetic which I will circulate through all taps, hoses, pumps and the plate chiller while I'm mashing in. When I'm ready to start running off the wort I pump it out into the fermentors instead of the kettle and when it has drained I close the tap and leave the chilling and transfer lines full of peracetic. After the boil when I'm ready to start chilling I shake and drain the fermentors, then open my tap, start the transfer pump and run it to drain until I start getting wort through instead of peracetic. I would think it is still coming through plenty hot enough to sanitise everything it touches at this point though I soon throttle it back.
This is exactly the same as at work, except the peracetic never touches the kettle because it is stored in the hop back while it circulates through the hoses, pumps, paraflow chiller and fermentors. We circulate twice. Mash tun gets scrubbed with elbow grease after use, kettle gets scrubbed with caustic after use and once every 20 brews or so we perform a hot caustic rinse.
Basically we sanitise before we use it, there is no point in sanitising something after cleaning it because you've got to sanitise it before you use it. It you are hooking up filters, hoses, pumps etc to transfer beer around the brewery you've got to sanitise all of those and the easiest way is to pump sanitiser through the whole lot prior to hooking up the beer.
Oh and cleaning is usually water flush followed by caustic CIP 30m+ followed by water rinse.
This is exactly the same as at work, except the peracetic never touches the kettle because it is stored in the hop back while it circulates through the hoses, pumps, paraflow chiller and fermentors. We circulate twice. Mash tun gets scrubbed with elbow grease after use, kettle gets scrubbed with caustic after use and once every 20 brews or so we perform a hot caustic rinse.
Basically we sanitise before we use it, there is no point in sanitising something after cleaning it because you've got to sanitise it before you use it. It you are hooking up filters, hoses, pumps etc to transfer beer around the brewery you've got to sanitise all of those and the easiest way is to pump sanitiser through the whole lot prior to hooking up the beer.
Oh and cleaning is usually water flush followed by caustic CIP 30m+ followed by water rinse.
In my experience many companies in the food or beverage business go above and beyond the call of duty in their cleaning/sanitizing protocols in order to have extra levels of defense in the event someone claims they got sick consuming their product.
Unemployed and underemployed attorneys can be a nightmare even to an absolutely perfectly operated business.
Unemployed and underemployed attorneys can be a nightmare even to an absolutely perfectly operated business.
On the other hand, on a commercial scale if you have a batch go bad the full cost of that batch is paid for out of profit.
Dcpcooks
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I don't sanitize the hot side. A good PBW wash and a rinse is all I use. I treat the cold side as if I wanted to eat off it. Hot rinse, PBW at 130 degrees, 130 degree rinse and Star SAN or acid Five for everything that touches the beer after the boil kettle. I assemble everything wet with star San on brew day.
I ferment with Brett lacto pedio and sacc yeast and I use the same vessels to ferment all the time. I've never had cross contamination. I do use separate gaskets and hoses for wild beers.
Pro Brewers at least the few I know clean with caustic and then neutralize the acid based caustic with an alkaline wash then rinse. They sani everything on the cold side
I ferment with Brett lacto pedio and sacc yeast and I use the same vessels to ferment all the time. I've never had cross contamination. I do use separate gaskets and hoses for wild beers.
Pro Brewers at least the few I know clean with caustic and then neutralize the acid based caustic with an alkaline wash then rinse. They sani everything on the cold side
DasBierBaron
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Caustics will eventually corrode stainless. I imagine they use acid to protect the stainless from corrosion. Having stuff grow in your equipment is also not really a good idea. Sanitizers work well on clean surfaces, but if you allow growth of organisms to get out of control and get a foothold, they might be harder to get rid of. Keeping all your equipment clean, hot and cold, is good practice for keeping bugs from spreading around your brewery. I believe saniclean is used because it doesn't foam.
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h22lude
Well-Known Member
Yeah I wouldn't doubt part of it was just to sell me on buying another product to use.
That is what I figured most people do too. I didn't read too much on it but some of the people on the pro forums were saying they sanitize after the alkaline. After StarSan dries it is useless. I wonder if they do it as safety precaution.
Dcpcooks
Well-Known Member
I sanitize on brew day and assemble while it's still wet with sanitizer. Big batches cost money and pro's won't risk an infected batch. All you need to do is clean wth a good cleaner like PBW then rinse. Sanitize on brew day. That's assuming you keep everything clean and covered before. Star San has a detergent as well as a phosphoric acid in it so it is actually a mild cleaner and a sanitizer. The only reason they call it an acid wash is annual EPA licensing cost are very high and vary by state.
