Anyone brewing Brut IPA?

[isomerization]

Well more reading and feedback from my brew club has pushed me to modify it.. Here's the updated

OG 1.053
FG 1.000
ABV 7.0%
BeerSmith predicted IBUs 26.2
Color 3.6 SRM

7 lbs Pilsen malt
2 lbs flaked corn
6 oz acidulated malt
0.5 lb of table sugar (for a gravity bump)
500 mL of 19 brix Sauvignon Blanc wine must added to primary (~10% of the fermentables)

0.25 oz of Magnum FWH for wort stabilization/antioxidant
2 oz of Hallertau Blanc whirlpooled at 170 for 20 minutes
1 oz of Nelson Sauvin whirlpooled at 170 for 20 minutes
1 oz of Ahtanum whirlpooled at 170 for 20 minutes

Dry hop with 1 oz each of Hallertau Blanc, Simcoe, and Amarillo for 5 days

US-05

10 g packet of glucoamylase pitched along with the yeast into primary

Personally, I have enjoyed the lower ABV/IBU offerings the most for this style. What were the reasons your club offered to increase those values?

 

[TheMadKing]

Personally, I have enjoyed the lower ABV/IBU offerings the most for this style. What were the reasons your club offered to increase those values?

The main reason was that most commercial examples seem to be in that range, and the style creator even recommends something around 7% but not to exceed 7.5%

Increasing the IBU's was actually just a byproduct of changing which hops I featured in the whirlpool, but I would be fine with lowering the whirlpool temp, or reducing the hops a little. I would agree that anything over 20 is pushing it, and asking for harshness with this style.

I'm really going for the wine character here too, so adding the table sure was suggested as a way to get some of that light sparkling quality

 

[Comfort_Zone]

As an idea: has anyone looked at using K1-V1116 for a brut IPA? It is rumored to be able to utilize maltose. Not sure if it'll do the same thing with hops that it does with grape must though.

 

[isomerization]

The main reason was that most commercial examples seem to be in that range, and the style creator even recommends something around 7% but not to exceed 7.5%

Increasing the IBU's was actually just a byproduct of changing which hops I featured in the whirlpool, but I would be fine with lowering the whirlpool temp, or reducing the hops a little. I would agree that anything over 20 is pushing it, and asking for harshness with this style.

I'm really going for the wine character here too, so adding the table sure was suggested as a way to get some of that light sparkling quality

If you want a wine character then the higher abv may help you there. I’d err on the side of less IBUs, but you have to start somewhere.

Regarding adding sugar, its all gonna be simple sugar in the end anyways!

 

[TheMadKing]

If you want a wine character then the higher abv may help you there. I’d err on the side of less IBUs, but you have to start somewhere.

Regarding adding sugar, its all gonna be simple sugar in the end anyways!

Sounds good! I'll drop the IBU's for sure, but it's more about the flavor than the sugar itself - if you fermented table sugar, water and nutrients, you would get a much different flavor from an equivalent brew with grain and enzymes, so there's more going on there flavor-wise than just the alcohol contribution.

 

[isomerization]

Sounds good! I'll drop the IBU's for sure, but it's more about the flavor than the sugar itself - if you fermented table sugar, water and nutrients, you would get a much different flavor from an equivalent brew with grain and enzymes, so there's more going on there flavor-wise than just the alcohol contribution.

I’m not sure that’s a fair comparison to this scenario though.

Would be more appropriate to say 100% grain with enzyme VERSUS 90% grain + 10% sugar with enzyme. I bet they’re pretty darn similar, which was my original intent, that it likely won’t change much at that ratio.

 

[TheMadKing]

I’m not sure that’s a fair comparison to this scenario though.

Would be more appropriate to say 100% grain with enzyme VERSUS 90% grain + 10% sugar with enzyme. I bet they’re pretty darn similar, which was my original intent, that it likely won’t change much at that ratio.

No you're right, that's a better comparison... I'll rethink that sugar addition

Thanks!

 

[Shenanigans]

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[Darthbrewder]

As an idea: has anyone looked at using K1-V1116 for a brut IPA? It is rumored to be able to utilize maltose. Not sure if it'll do the same thing with hops that it does with grape must though.

I haven’t tried using wine yeast. But for this style, if you are adding your enzyme to the fermenter, it doesn’t matter what type of yeast eats what sugar. Hell, you could make a raw brut ipa if you wanted and skip the mash and the boil altogether. If you are shooting for more wine character and or fruity notes then I don’t see why any number of wine yeasts wouldn’t work.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

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if you are adding your enzyme to the fermenter, it doesn’t matter what type of yeast eats what sugar.

It will still ferment, yes. But you need to watch what the yeast will do to non-sugar components of the mash. Most wine yeast are POF+, meaning that they will tend to produce "Belgian" phenolics if the mash contains compounds such as ferulic acid (which it will do). K1-V1116 is one of the very rare wine yeasts that is either POF- or very weakly POF+, so won't go too Belgian on you even when used as the primary fermentation strain.

 

[doug293cz]

I haven’t tried using wine yeast. But for this style, if you are adding your enzyme to the fermenter, it doesn’t matter what type of yeast eats what sugar. Hell, you could make a raw brut ipa if you wanted and skip the mash and the boil altogether. If you are shooting for more wine character and or fruity notes then I don’t see why any number of wine yeasts wouldn’t work.

I'd want to at least boil for a short time to kill off the lacto and other organisms so as not to end up with a sour.

Brew on

 

[Comfort_Zone]

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It will still ferment, yes. But you need to watch what the yeast will do to non-sugar components of the mash. Most wine yeast are POF+, meaning that they will tend to produce "Belgian" phenolics if the mash contains compounds such as ferulic acid (which it will do). K1-V1116 is one of the very rare wine yeasts that is either POF- or very weakly POF+, so won't go too Belgian on you even when used as the primary fermentation strain.

That's basically what I was thinking. K1-V1116 is one of the few wine yeasts that I'm aware of that's POF- and can metabolize wort decently. I guess this will be a fun experiment for me!

 

[Andrew Hodgson]

Has anyone been adding actual wine must to their brut IPA? I tasted a fantastic example from Otter Creek that used must and have the opportunity to order some Australian Sauvignon Blanc must, I will use some for sours but I was thinking I would save some for trying a brut IPA recipe.

 

[TheMadKing]

Has anyone been adding actual wine must to their brut IPA? I tasted a fantastic example from Otter Creek that used must and have the opportunity to order some Australian Sauvignon Blanc must, I will use some for sours but I was thinking I would save some for trying a brut IPA recipe.

There was a guy on this thread who tried it along with a brett fermentation and he said it turned out well. There's also a number of commercial examples that do it, so that's why I included it in my recipe above as an experiment.

 

[duelerx]

Has anyone been adding actual wine must to their brut IPA? I tasted a fantastic example from Otter Creek that used must and have the opportunity to order some Australian Sauvignon Blanc must, I will use some for sours but I was thinking I would save some for trying a brut IPA recipe.

Scott Janish has done it you can see on his latest blog posts.

 

[Magnus314]

How are you guys dry hopping this?

I would think with the low FG oxidation would be a bigger problem than in a "thicker" beer.

 

[TheMadKing]

How are you guys dry hopping this?

I would think with the low FG oxidation would be a bigger problem than in a "thicker" beer.

I'm not sure I understand the link between oxidation and FG, but I intend to dry hop right at the end of primary fermentation since haze is acceptable in this style

 

[Magnus314]

Just that there's not much to hide behind, a little oxidation (or diacetyl or any other flaw), would seem to go a long way in a beer like this.

 

[TheMadKing]

Just that there's not much to hide behind, a little oxidation (or diacetyl or any other flaw), would seem to go a long way in a beer like this.

Don't forget this is an IPA [emoji6] it may be dry, but low on flavor it is not

 

[TheMadKing]

Has anyone tried the Sierra Nevada spring seasonal brut IPA?

I personally think it's fantastic and exactly what I want from this style. The aroma is very much like a white wine, and the flavor is well balanced, with pine and citrus dominating and just a hint of tropical fruit/gooseberry type flavor.

They published the ingredients list on their website and the hop choices are very unexpected after reading this thread.

 

[Comfort_Zone]

@TheMadKing I've had it and it's a tasty brew indeed. It's more crisp than a lot of the others I've had.

 

[Magnus314]

Don't forget this is an IPA [emoji6] it may be dry, but low on flavor it is not

I'm with you. The problem I've been running into is more along the lines of a VERY "green" beer flavor - hint of diacetyl? - and a HARSH hop flavor. I've been using smaller and smaller amounts of hops each batch, hoping to cut down on the harsh/green/vegaetal notes in the hop presence, but it still remains.

That's why i was asking about your dry hop process specifically.

This last bath, just nearing ready now (I'm drinking it, but it's not "ready" if you know what i mean has a great beer flavor, no diacetyl or anything else (I did the enzyme at 140F down to pitch temps as it cooled - ended at 0.998), but the hops flavor is really pretty harsh.

I did a 10 gal batch with 2 oz Azaaca (sp?) at 10 min., whirl, and 2 oz dry hop in each 5 gal batch at the end of primary, and it' still has a pretty harsh, green hoppiness.

Wondering if I'm doing something different in the dry hop that's causing this?

 

[eric19312]

I've done three batches now using Brewcraft's Liquid Glucoamylase (got it from Amazon) and wanted to share my results
https://www.amazon.com/DIAZYME-LIQUID-GLUCOAMYLASE-AMYLASE-BREWCRAFT/dp/B07GM2BW7H
Datasheet I found online indicates enzyme starts to denature at 130F so when I used it in the mash I started with a rest at 130.
I use the enzyme at rate of 9mL in mash and/or 6mL in primary for 16 gallon batches.

Batch 1
80% malted barley, 10% flaked wheat, 10% flaked rice
enzyme in mash and primary
doughed in at 130 (with enzyme), ramped temp to 140 over 10-15 min, held at 140 45 min, ramped to 155 over 15 min, held for 10 min
OG 1.052
FG 0.999

Batch 2
84% malted barley, 9% flaked wheat, 6% table sugar [I had issue with efficiency on this batch and added the sugar in boil to bring up gravity]
enzyme in primary only
single infusion mash at 148 for 75 min with no mashout
OG 1.051
FG 1.000

Batch 3
87% malted barley, 7% flaked wheat, 6% corn
doughed in at 130 (with enzyme), held 20 min, ramped to 144 over 15 min, held 45 min, ramped to 160 over 15 min, held 30 min, mashed out at 170
enzyme in mash only
mashed at
OG 1.054
FG 1.007

I suspect to get this to work on hot size what I need to do is complete the mash, lauter, and then chill the wort to 125, then add the enzyme and rest for some time, then heat to a boil. Not sure if that would be safe for the wort (oxidation? souring?) but it would also add a significant amount of time to my brew day. Both batches with enzyme in the fermentor came out great and so I think I will stick with that strategy.

 

[TheMadKing]

I'm with you. The problem I've been running into is more along the lines of a VERY "green" beer flavor - hint of diacetyl? - and a HARSH hop flavor. I've been using smaller and smaller amounts of hops each batch, hoping to cut down on the harsh/green/vegaetal notes in the hop presence, but it still remains.

That's why i was asking about your dry hop process specifically.

This last bath, just nearing ready now (I'm drinking it, but it's not "ready" if you know what i mean has a great beer flavor, no diacetyl or anything else (I did the enzyme at 140F down to pitch temps as it cooled - ended at 0.998), but the hops flavor is really pretty harsh.

I did a 10 gal batch with 2 oz Azaaca (sp?) at 10 min., whirl, and 2 oz dry hop in each 5 gal batch at the end of primary, and it' still has a pretty harsh, green hoppiness.

Wondering if I'm doing something different in the dry hop that's causing this?

How long are you leaving your dry hops in? And what temperature is your whirlpool?

 

[isomerization]

I'm with you. The problem I've been running into is more along the lines of a VERY "green" beer flavor - hint of diacetyl? - and a HARSH hop flavor. I've been using smaller and smaller amounts of hops each batch, hoping to cut down on the harsh/green/vegaetal notes in the hop presence, but it still remains.

That's why i was asking about your dry hop process specifically.

This last bath, just nearing ready now (I'm drinking it, but it's not "ready" if you know what i mean has a great beer flavor, no diacetyl or anything else (I did the enzyme at 140F down to pitch temps as it cooled - ended at 0.998), but the hops flavor is really pretty harsh.

I did a 10 gal batch with 2 oz Azaaca (sp?) at 10 min., whirl, and 2 oz dry hop in each 5 gal batch at the end of primary, and it' still has a pretty harsh, green hoppiness.

Wondering if I'm doing something different in the dry hop that's causing this?

What are your predicted IBU values? I feel like this style is very sensitive to bitterness. I’d shoot for 20 IBUs. For reference, the last brut I made had 8 oz dry hop (low 70s F for 2 days) in 5 gal batch with non of the issues you mentioned.

 

[Broothru]

I've done three batches now using Brewcraft's Liquid Glucoamylase (got it from Amazon) and wanted to share my results
https://www.amazon.com/DIAZYME-LIQUID-GLUCOAMYLASE-AMYLASE-BREWCRAFT/dp/B07GM2BW7H
Datasheet I found online indicates enzyme starts to denature at 130F so when I used it in the mash I started with a rest at 130.
I use the enzyme at rate of 9mL in mash and/or 6mL in primary for 16 gallon batches.

Batch 1
80% malted barley, 10% flaked wheat, 10% flaked rice
enzyme in mash and primary
doughed in at 130 (with enzyme), ramped temp to 140 over 10-15 min, held at 140 45 min, ramped to 155 over 15 min, held for 10 min
OG 1.052
FG 0.999

Batch 2
84% malted barley, 9% flaked wheat, 6% table sugar [I had issue with efficiency on this batch and added the sugar in boil to bring up gravity]
enzyme in primary only
single infusion mash at 148 for 75 min with no mashout
OG 1.051
FG 1.000

Batch 3
87% malted barley, 7% flaked wheat, 6% corn
doughed in at 130 (with enzyme), held 20 min, ramped to 144 over 15 min, held 45 min, ramped to 160 over 15 min, held 30 min, mashed out at 170
enzyme in mash only
mashed at
OG 1.054
FG 1.007

I suspect to get this to work on hot size what I need to do is complete the mash, lauter, and then chill the wort to 125, then add the enzyme and rest for some time, then heat to a boil. Not sure if that would be safe for the wort (oxidation? souring?) but it would also add a significant amount of time to my brew day. Both batches with enzyme in the fermentor came out great and so I think I will stick with that strategy.

Try using amylase enzyme during the mash and save the glucoamylase for primary. That way you don't denature above 140F. I've got a batch krausening now and had good results.

This latest batch I also used Omega OYL-501 Gulo which is supposed to attenuate 85-90% without adding enzymes. Since its still krausening, I don't have a F.G. yet. My grain bill was almost identical to yours except for an 8 oz. addition of flaked maize.

What hops did you use?

Brooo Brother

 

[TheMadKing]

Try using amylase enzyme during the mash and save the glucoamylase for primary. That way you don't denature above 140F. I've got a batch krausening now and had good results.

This latest batch I also used Omega OYL-501 Gulo which is supposed to attenuate 85-90% without adding enzymes. Since its still krausening, I don't have a F.G. yet. My grain bill was almost identical to yours except for an 8 oz. addition of flaked maize.

What hops did you use?

Brooo Brother

Just curious, but what's the advantage of using the enzymes twice?

From what I've read in this thread it sounds like everyone was getting full attenuation just from adding glucoamylase to the primary. So it doesn't seem like you gain anything by adding anything to your mash

 

[Broothru]

Just curious, but what's the advantage of using the enzymes twice?

From what I've read in this thread it sounds like everyone was getting full attenuation just from adding glucoamylase to the primary. So it doesn't seem like you gain anything by adding anything to your mash

The glucoamylase starts to denature at 130F and is nearly denatured totally at 140F. If you do a single infusion mash at say 156F, the gluco is not doing anything for you. Even a step mash would require an extended rest at something pretty low.

Amylase enzyme (specifically alpha amylase), is most active at 145F and doesn't denature until something above 160F IIRC. By using amylase in the mash you boost the diastatic power to more fully convert the starches to maltose.

Later, after boiling and chilling the wort below 130-140F, adding glucoamylase to the primary will break down dextrins and other unfermentables (as well as any remaining maltose starches) into sugars for fermentation.

At least that's how I understand the science.

Brooo Brother

 

[isomerization]

There isn’t a benefit is the shortest answer. Complete conversion is not an issue for modern malt.

Thus the use of any enzyme in the mash, IF followed up with glucoamylase in the fermenter is completely unnecessary.

 

[cheesebach]

From just a final gravity perspective, I don’t think there is any benefit in using enzymes in the mash if using gluco in the primary. However, I believe it is possible that using enzymes in the mash to break down some/most of the unfermentables before fermentation may have other effects on fermentation duration, yeast ester characteristics, hop character, and possibly other things. If I liked the style enough to brew it often, I would definitely give the mash + primary enzymes approach a chance (despite reaching FG below 1.000 with primary only in the past) to see which produced a better result.