any thoughts?

[ibleedbrew]

just wanted to see if anyone had some insight for me on my first saison recipe
thoughts on what to change or what has worked for them in the past times temp anything thanks

pilsner malt 9 lbs
munich .75lbs
wheat malt .75 lbs
belgian aromatic .75lbs
clover honey 1lbs (ten min)?
table sugar 1lbs (ten min)?
fresh orange zest or coracou orange peels still havent decided
coariander .5 OZ (ten min)?

EKG 1 OZ 60 min
tettnang 1oz 60 min
ekg .5 oz 1min
tettnang .5 oz 1min
and wyeast 3711 french saison

mash 154 70 min 5.2 ph stabilizer added
sparge 60 min at 170

so anythought suggestions would be great and i appreciate it in advance thanks again everyone
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[MalFet]

Looks formally sound. From a design standpoint, a few opinions: Two pounds of honey/sugar seems a bit high for me, but I've never tried it so I won't rule it out. The aromatic seems excessive. I wouldn't typically want that malt in a saison. It just ends up being malty in a way that I don't think saisons should be. But, if you're going to use it consider cutting it down to 1/4 pound or so. If that is whole coriander seeds, that seems like a reasonable amount.

Let us know how it turns out!

 

[whatsleftofyou]

I agree that what is basically 2lb of simple sugars is a lot. Also note that you're OG is going to be about 1.075 (assuming 70% efficiency), which is a bit high for the style. I'd reduce the honey/sugar by 50% at least and mash much lower - 148 or 149F to dry it out that way. I'd also agree with the above post that you may want to scale back on the Munich/Aromatic a bit. Remember that a saison should be crisp and refreshing, not very sweet or bready.

 

[MalFet]

I agree that what is basically 2lb of simple sugars is a lot. Also note that you're OG is going to be about 1.075 (assuming 70% efficiency), which is a bit high for the style. I'd reduce the honey/sugar by 50% at least and mash much lower - 148 or 149F to dry it out that way. I'd also agree with the above post that you may want to scale back on the Munich/Aromatic a bit. Remember that a saison should be crisp and refreshing, not very sweet or bready.

Oh yeah, I didn't notice the mash temperature before. I'd maybe go even lower to 146-147 and then bump it up to a 90 minute mash.

 

[TheMan]

My opinion is different than both above...Drop the spices and orange. It isn't needed. The yeast will give you plenty of that effect.

Drop the honey all together. Drop the Aromatic to 1/4 lb. as stated above. A good helping of sugar will help dry it out (which you have) and you want it bone dry.

Once again...spices in a Saison are not needed. Ask and you will get plenty of opinions. Mine is worth $0.02 as is everyone elses. Your tastebuds will be the final judge.

 

[whatsleftofyou]

I'm personally not a fan of spice/orange additions in saison either, but I can chalk that up to "to each their own" on that.

One other thing that hasn't been mentioned either, is that you'll want to do a 90 minute boil. Pils malt inherently has more DMS and you'll want to drive that off so you don't end up with "butter beer".

 

[ibleedbrew]

yeah i planed on 90 min boil and im only going to be able to do a single infusion mash at one temp and the recipe called for 145 at 60 min then bump it up to 158 for 20 min then sparge so i just figured i go with 154 for a while but ill take your word on 147 for 90 min then just sparge as usuall and for the spices and orange i had em left over from another batch thought i would just throw em in there but i can cut those out the only thing im not going to be able to change is the malt its all milled and together so cut the honey and sugar as well?? this will be my second all grain batch so dont be afraid to say it how it is

 

[ibleedbrew]

and im not afraid of a high OG a healthy 9% is fine for me and this yeast is suppose to handle up to 12 i believe

 

[ibleedbrew]

i tell ya what ill cut out the seed and orange completely and cut the sugar and honey by half and mash at 147 for 90 min?? you think that will yield better results??

 

[MalFet]

i tell ya what ill cut out the seed and orange completely and cut the sugar and honey by half and mash at 147 for 90 min?? you think that will yield better results??

Yup. To my taste buds, at least. If you really want that much aromatic in there, you might keep the sugar just to get it to dry out properly.

 

[TheMan]

I would listen to the above and mash for 90, boil for 90, leave out the spices and cut the honey to 1/4 and you'll be happy.

 

[whatsleftofyou]

and im not afraid of a high OG a healthy 9% is fine for me and this yeast is suppose to handle up to 12 i believe

It's more a function of what your FG will be with a higher OG.

 

[ibleedbrew]

its its brewed and fermenting right now so ill tell ya what i did and how.

mashed original recipe grains at 147 for 90 min
then used a new homemade three tier system ( first time) 170 for 45 min
and had two and a half gallons of water left over half in the HTL and 2 in the MLT
pre boil gravity was 1023- horrible i know im assuming because of all the extra water??
biled for about 100 min with 15 min to go added half the honey and about three quarter pound of sugar and my OG was 1056 so i guess if you can tell me why my numbers were so low it would help alot thanks this is my second all grain batch third total so just give me a heads up on what im doing wrong

and beer tasted like sweet acid very sugary and bitter-not good
and looked very dark for a saison if that can help you help me ha thanks

 

[MalFet]

its its brewed and fermenting right now so ill tell ya what i did and how.

mashed original recipe grains at 147 for 90 min
then used a new homemade three tier system ( first time) 170 for 45 min
and had two and a half gallons of water left over half in the HTL and 2 in the MLT
pre boil gravity was 1023- horrible i know im assuming because of all the extra water??
biled for about 100 min with 15 min to go added half the honey and about three quarter pound of sugar and my OG was 1056 so i guess if you can tell me why my numbers were so low it would help alot thanks this is my second all grain batch third total so just give me a heads up on what im doing wrong

and beer tasted like sweet acid very sugary and bitter-not good
and looked very dark for a saison if that can help you help me ha thanks

You're going to have to explain your process a little more there, because I don't really follow. What do you mean by water "left over"? How did you sparge? What was the gravity of your first runnings, etc.?

I'm not surprised that it is dark because of all the aromatic, but your gravity should have been higher.

 

[ibleedbrew]

mashed with 3.84 gal at 147 for 90 min then i set up another 5 gallon cooler on a ladder put six gallons in it conected it to my homemade sparge arm laid it on top of my mash tun about six inches above the grains let water trickle on em for sixty min and while all this is happining i collected a gallon of run off and recycled it into the 5 gal cooler and then about fourtyfive min later i had just under seven gal of wort collected so i shut off all the valves. after doing so i had about an inch of water above the grains and a half gallon in the 5 gal cooler. so i removed the boil kettle and collected the remaning wort from the MLT and it was two gal i really appreciate the help on all this man im the only one that does this out of all my friends so this website is my only resource for info

i used some calculator online to get stike water temp and amounts i think brew 365 if your wondering where those number came from

 

[MalFet]

mashed with 3.84 gal at 147 for 90 min then i set up another 5 gallon cooler on a ladder put six gallons in it conected it to my homemade sparge arm laid it on top of my mash tun about six inches above the grains let water trickle on em for sixty min and while all this is happining i collected a gallon of run off and recycled it into the 5 gal cooler and then about fourtyfive min later i had just under seven gal of wort collected so i shut off all the valves. after doing so i had about an inch of water above the grains and a half gallon in the 5 gal cooler. so i removed the boil kettle and collected the remaning wort from the MLT and it was two gal i really appreciate the help on all this man im the only one that does this out of all my friends so this website is my only resource for info

i used some calculator online to get stike water temp and amounts i think brew 365 if your wondering where those number came from

Good god man, punctuation! Punctuation!

So you mashed with 3.84 gal at 147º for 90min. That part I get.

Then you fly sparged for sixty minutes with six gallons of water, but when you closed the valves there was 7 gallons in the boil kettle, a half gallon left in the HLT, and 2 gallons in the MLT? From the looks of it, you are putting 9.84 gallons into your system and getting out 9.5, not counting grain absorption. Where is the extra water coming from?

When you say the preboil gravity was 1.023, how much volume were you talking about? What was the gravity of your first runnings? What was the gravity of the last wort when you stopped sparging?

 

[ibleedbrew]

The extra water i added maybe a quater gallon to the HLT, it was leaking at first, so maybe there but that shouldn't account for the extra i must have had the calculator set up on "365" for a high amount of trub loss. Anyway would not getting all of the water from the MLT knock points off on gravity? to answer your question about my pre boil measurement i took the sample after i vourlouf and had about a gallon or two in my brew kettle. so now looking at your question of "my first runnings" i think i did the whole process wrong. I waited till the mash timer went off, then just vourlof and started sparging the whole thing. Am i supposed to vourlof get clear runnings, run out the entire mash tun, then sparge with my sparge water.

and you asked me how much volume i am talking about on my pre boil gravity reading? i dont know what that means

i didnt know i was suppose to take so many readings just when i mash out and after the boil is all ive done on brew day but this is the second one ha

yeah i know i rarely use punctuation - it makes reading a mystery
and i dont know if im using the term vourlof right ( recycle the wort i believe) and i know im spelling it wrong

 

[MalFet]

The extra water i added maybe a quater gallon to the HLT, it was leaking at first, so maybe there but that shouldn't account for the extra i must have had the calculator set up on "365" for a high amount of trub loss. Anyway would not getting all of the water from the MLT knock points off on gravity?

It would cost you efficiency, yes. Any sugars that were in remaining 2 gallons weren't in your boil kettle. That said, if those two gallons would have been your 8th and 9th gallons, you wouldn't have wanted them anyway.

I still don't completely understand how you got all this water. You put 9.84 in and got 9.5 out; that shouldn't be possible. An extra quart doesn't change that. I think your measurements are way off somewhere, but I can't follow things enough to understand where.

Here's what I think I understand:
1) You mashed with 3.84 gallons. Of that, about 1.4 gallons would have been absorbed by the grain, giving you 2.4 gallons of water that eventually ran off into your kettle.

2) Then you sparged with 5.75 gallons (6 gallons, minus the 1/2 gallon left over in the HLT, plus the 1/4 gallon you added to the leaking HLT)?

3) You stoped the sparging when there was still 2 gallons in there, thus only 3.75 gallons of the sparge water made it into your kettle.

4) Thus, in your boil kettle, you had about 6.15 gallons after mashing? Is that right? This is where I am still confused. And the gravity of this 6.15 gallons was 1.023?

to answer your question about my pre boil measurement i took the sample after i vourlouf and had about a gallon or two in my brew kettle. so now looking at your question of "my first runnings" i think i did the whole process wrong. I waited till the mash timer went off, then just vourlof and started sparging the whole thing. Am i supposed to vourlof get clear runnings, run out the entire mash tun, then sparge with my sparge water.

Not all the way out, but typically with fly sparging you want to have an inch or so of liquid above your grain bed. Drain your tun to an inch, then use your fly sparging device to keep it at that level. If you started fly sparging right away, that could have been a factor that hurt your efficiency.

and you asked me how much volume i am talking about on my pre boil gravity reading? i dont know what that means

When you saw your pre-boil gravity was 1.023, how much water did you have in your boil kettle? Gravity itself doesn't tell you how much sugar you have. It only tells you how much sugar you have per unit of volume.

i didnt know i was suppose to take so many readings just when i mash out and after the boil is all ive done on brew day but this is the second one ha

Generally you won't need to, but when you're using a new system it's useful information for trouble shooting.

yeah i know i rarely use punctuation - it makes reading a mystery
and i dont know if im using the term vourlof right ( recycle the wort i believe) and i know im spelling it wrong

 

[ibleedbrew]

hey thanks man for all your help all i can do is keep brewing and tie up some loose ends and just hope this saison turns out

when i took the pre boil reading there was about two gallons of wort in the kettle

and i had a total of 7 gallons of wort after sparging not 6.15 and im using a full gallon pitcher with liters and quarts marked out i must have just mised counted a gallon or two when making sparge or mash water like an idiot

and when fly sparging, say i have the inch of water above the grains and i see i have 5 gallons in my pot, and i know when i stop sparging ill have 1.5 gallons in the tun. should i stop the sparge water and drain whats in the tun, or should i just keep running the sparge water until i hit my boil mark??