any regrets going electric?

[kal]

You should be able to get a very vigorous boil with 4500W in 5-7 gallons of wort.

Kal

 

[CidahMastah]

the only limitations i see for my electric system:
1) cannot do back to back batches.
2) decoctions. again, i don't do these, but i didn't identify this was an issue. i could always use a little banjo burner when i wanted to, but electric isn't conducive to this.

I have absolutely no regrets for my system either. Best brewing decision I ever made.

I wanted to touch on the above statements too. I worked off of Kal's pioneering (thanks Kal!!) and kicked my design up a notch so I have the capability to run two 5500w elements simultaneously. This has huge benefits if you are a back to back brewer (I am) or if you work with large volumes of water (consistently brew 10+ gal batches. My set up is 60amp, powered off a subpanel with two 30 amp gfi breakers to achieve this. I say all this because I built my first controller very simply and found it wasn't enough. Consider where you want to go and what you want to do before you take the plunge. i.e. build the panel that you will grow into (cause they aren't cheap to build). If you aren't the building type, Kal just released his 50amp prebuilt version.

Decoctions (IMHO) can easily be done on electric system, so long as you use a propane burner to cook your decoctions (haha). Probably not a big issue if you are coming from gas to electric. I heat my decoctions on my old gas burner and it works well to add into the steady mash temp I maintain on the electric side.

one last comment. If you plan on doing lots of step mashes I would recc. looking into RIMS (I have a herms). you can make step mashes work on a herms, but they aren't ideal. A herms is designed for single infusion mashes and that is where it excels. There is only one brew I do that requires step mash, so I am ok with dealing with that when the time comes.

Good luck!

 

[DrPaulsen]

You should be able to get a very vigorous boil with 4500W in 5-7 gallons of wort.

Kal

I think the issue I'm experiencing might be due to the element height, leaving an excessive amount of "dead space" below the element. In the middle of a very vigorous boil, if I flip on the pump and cycle wort from the bottom of the keggle to the top, it immediately stops boiling for 3-4 mins. I've tried adding insulation to the bottom of the kettle with little improvement. I've even considered adding some type of electric heating element in the bottom of the kettle, but haven't been able to find any formable/shape-able immersion elements.

I've looked closely at your videos and have noticed that my wort never forms as clean of a protein break as yours does.

For now I'm moving from an electric keg to a gas-fired Stout Kettle. In a few years, I'll probably punch a hole in the side of that and install an electric element just to compare.

 

[Emc]

I like to step mash, so I was already thinking I would go the rimms route. Cidah, you mention that you upped it to two 5500 for doing 10+ gallon batches, and maybe others can chime in. From looking at kal's sight, I was under the impression that 10 gallon batch's (which for me is really 11 gallons at end of boil, usually 13 1/2ish gallons preboil on average) would be no problem on one element? your reason for the upgrade?

I step mash my sours and high gravity beers, so I had decided that rimms was the way to go. Agreed, I was already planning on over building the panel with the thought easier to grow into than add later, and since i currently have a perfectly functional propane brutus clone I brew on, it is helping in my patience to build the panel out completely first.

 

[slakwhere]

i step to mash out temps with a single 5500W in a herms setup for 12 gallon batches. from 154 to 168 in about 10 min. so a rims would for sure do it.

 

[lschiavo]

I also step mash with my HERMS quite nicely. I have 11kW in my HLT/HEX so I do it in half the time slakwhere does

 

[CidahMastah]

I like to step mash, so I was already thinking I would go the rimms route. Cidah, you mention that you upped it to two 5500 for doing 10+ gallon batches, and maybe others can chime in. From looking at kal's sight, I was under the impression that 10 gallon batch's (which for me is really 11 gallons at end of boil, usually 13 1/2ish gallons preboil on average) would be no problem on one element? your reason for the upgrade?

I step mash my sours and high gravity beers, so I had decided that rimms was the way to go. Agreed, I was already planning on over building the panel with the thought easier to grow into than add later, and since i currently have a perfectly functional propane brutus clone I brew on, it is helping in my patience to build the panel out completely first.

I only use one 5500w element for my boils (typically 11g or 13-14 preboil). What I was saying is that I have two elements, one for the HLT and one for the BK. I can run those elements simultaneously. This allows me to boil and heat strike water, or maintain a herms mash while boiling another beer. The key difference in my system is that you can fire two 5500 elements at the same time, which allows me to do back to back batches, among many other things, to speed up a multiple batch brew day.

FWIW: I have boiled about 22-23 gallons with the lid on my insulated pots with one element (on accident). I pulled the lid off and the boil continued to roll.

 

[CidahMastah]

I am not saying that you can't gain heat in your herms tank quickly, but the question is how long does it take for your MT to equalize to your step? This is something that has been discussed at length in these forums. How long should a step take to be an effective step mash? i.e. your step mash "starts" when the entire grain bed is at the step temp, so if it takes you 20 minutes to rise to that temp, you are at 20 for the rise, and the time of your step.

If you push your recirc too fast you will compact the grain bed, if you go slower it takes forever to increase the temp in your MT evenly across the grain bed. How does this lag time and inconsistency affect the enzymes, per the step?

A step from 154-168 isn't really a step mash or that crucial it is just a mash out step. I am talking about making steps from a protein rest to sach rest, etc. For example for my witbier (the only recipe I consistently do a step mash for) the schedule would look like this:

Step 1: 113F (5 minutes)
Step 2: 144F (35 minutes)
Step 3: 154F (20 minutes)
.....

The hardest and longest step would be from 113 to 144F. It would take for ever in a herms, no matter how fast you recirc through and no matter what your element size. The only way I can make it work quick is to mash thick and add hot water to boost the temp.

The only other way is to overheat your hersm. So heat to maybe 160F and run your mash water through that quick to bring up your step quickly to the whole tun. But does this denature the enzymes some since the wort going through the coil is getting over heated then dumped back into a cooler body of mass in the grain bed? It still isn't a quick step by any means.

 

[jbsengineer]

Cidah can you highlight the steps you go through to do your step mash on the witbier?

 

[cscade]

Just to throw in a data point here;

I do a Wit in my HERMS, which is a single 220V 5500W element.
I run a step from 122F to 154F, which takes almost exactly 30 minutes to rise. That's with a 16.12lb grist at 1.5 qt/lb, recirculating with a march pump wide open the whole time. The beer turns out fantastic.

 

[Homercidal]

I'm getting so excited for my electric system! Sounds like a great upgrade. I need to set up a reminder to buy some 10-3 for the elements at the hardware tonight. Come on, Menards gift Cards!

 

[CidahMastah]

Just to throw in a data point here;

I do a Wit in my HERMS, which is a single 220V 5500W element.
I run a step from 122F to 154F, which takes almost exactly 30 minutes to rise. That's with a 16.12lb grist at 1.5 qt/lb, recirculating with a march pump wide open the whole time. The beer turns out fantastic.

and I should have said.... I am not saying I have proven a long rise to produce bad beer. But for me, if I am a step guy, I want my steps to happen within 10 minutes or so max. That means my entire mash volume is at my step temp within 10 minutes from rise (not jsut the exiting wort from the herms coil). This is just a made up expectation of mine. To me personally a brew day that adds another hour or more in step times isn't ideal. I also have the main goal of providing a steady temp to favor enzymes in the step, not across a 30 minute ramp. I am not sure how the RIMS handle it timewise, but general understanding is that the RIMS is faster to step.

Thanks for the solid numbers cscade.

Cidah can you highlight the steps you go through to do your step mash on the witbier?

for my step mash with the wit I have near boiling water going in my BK. So I mash at thick, say 1qt/ lb mash or so for the first rest (113). Once I give that five minutes I use beer smith to approximate how much volume of 212 to add to step up to 144F (the second step).

So basically I work it like a decoction, without grain.

1: 113F for 5 mins by adding strike water as per beersmith (recirc)
2: 144F for 20 - (stop recirc) adding 212F water as per beersmith to achieve next step, I add steady and stir constantly so as to cool down the 212F quickly and heat up the mash volume to minimize denaturing of the enzymes. Once I am at the step (2-5 minutes to do this), I start recirculation again through he herms coil.
3. for the next step I usually just ramp up my HLT since the increase is about 10 degrees or so and I don't want to thin the mash out too much more.

If the step is small, you can ramp up, but your mash volume takes a long time to become what you are getting on wort exiting your HLT coil. i.e. your HLT gets to temp, then you have easily 60lbs+ of water and grain in your mash to heat up by running a it through the herms coil. If you temp your mash in several spots you will see what I mean. One spot will me the hotter inflow from the coil (144F) and the other parts of the mash will be like 133F or whatever depending on how long the ramping has been going on.

Again, this may not make any difference. But my understanding is that enzymes did best (produced teh desired mash characteristic) when they were held constantly at a certain temperature, not ramped. I don't sweat it too much because I brew the wit 1-3 times a year. But like I said, doable, but not ideal for step mashing IMO.

I have tried overheating the herms water to speed up things, but it doesn't work was fast as adding hot water to the mash directly.

 

[lschiavo]

Just to throw in a data point here;

I do a Wit in my HERMS, which is a single 220V 5500W element.
I run a step from 122F to 154F, which takes almost exactly 30 minutes to rise. That's with a 16.12lb grist at 1.5 qt/lb, recirculating with a march pump wide open the whole time. The beer turns out fantastic.

I was considering doing this with a beer. No beer in particular. Just mash in low and ramp through the entire range. What would be any downside? It seems to work for your Wit.

 

[slakwhere]

usually we pick a mash temp to determine the amount of fermentables vs mouthfeel. depending on how quickly you ramp, you'll get more of one than the other. to some degree you'll basically activate just about every enzime available to you during the mash. but since you're going through them in sequence and there's only a set amount of stuff to break down, you'll probably still end up with thinner mouthfeel and more fermentables.

 

[lschiavo]

usually we pick a mash temp to determine the amount of fermentables vs mouthfeel. depending on how quickly you ramp, you'll get more of one than the other. to some degree you'll basically activate just about every enzime available to you during the mash. but since you're going through them in sequence and there's only a set amount of stuff to break down, you'll probably still end up with thinner mouthfeel and more fermentables.

That makes sense as with a single infusion you avoid all the lower temps. I think the ramp would be quick enough that it would not really sit and work at any lower temps for any period of time though. I think I'll try it someday just to see what happens...

 

[CidahMastah]

usually we pick a mash temp to determine the amount of fermentables vs mouthfeel. depending on how quickly you ramp, you'll get more of one than the other. to some degree you'll basically activate just about every enzime available to you during the mash. but since you're going through them in sequence and there's only a set amount of stuff to break down, you'll probably still end up with thinner mouthfeel and more fermentables.

I agree with this line of thought (why I think steps need to happen fast if you buy into doing step mashes). This is why I find step brews sort of limiting with a herms type system.

"They" say that most of your conversion will happen within the first 15 minutes of an infusion mash. So if you are stepping herms style you will be hard pressed to manipulate the mouth feel with more unfermentables since your enzymes have chewed through at the low end of the temperature range favoring a dry beer with less mouth feel. In the witbiers case this is exactly what you want anyway.

 

[cscade]

I agree with slakwhere & cidahmastah.

The 122F step in my wit recipe is really a protein rest, not a conversion step. I'm getting the flaked wheat and flaked oats all set to party, and then ramping through my primary saccharification rest. That's the reason I'm going straight to 154, is to try to keep the beta amylase from having too terribly much fun and killing all the mouthfeel on the slow trip there. I let the 154 rest (which is mostly alpha amylase) run for a full 60 minutes before mash-out, not because I actually need to for conversion, but because I'm going for a crystal clear wort on this beer.

I suspect that if I were to do an iodine test on this mash that I'd be seeing full conversion well before the end of the 154 rest.

If you don't need to do a low step like this for say, a protein rest, don't. It's been suggested by numerous people smarter than me that a protein rest on a mash comprised of just modern, well-modified malts is actually harmful to the quality of the finished beer. YMMV, of course.

Cheers!