Any reason to boil longer than first hop addition?
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There is a fine line I've been told of full utilization. From what I've heard, anything between 20-50 minutes isn't really useful, if you intend on doing a full 60 minute boil. Same principle I think applies if you only do a 45 minute boil overall, your bittering hops won't reach their full potential without that extra 15 minutes. There are 20 or 30 minute recipes, but I think those are usually pre-hopped.
TopherM
Well-Known Member
DMS isn't going to be much of a factor in the types of grains you would use in a stout. DMS is much more of a factor in beers containing a high % of Pilsner malt. Even if there were small levels of DMS remaining in your final wort, the body of the stout would cover the slight off flavors. You'd probably be fine with a 45 minute boil for a stout.
broadbill
Well-Known Member
You might want to boil for the full 60 minutes if you are doing AG and need to reduce the volume, DMS is another reason but probably not a big deal for this particular recipe. You can certainly boil for only 45 minutes if you don't need to worry about the volume being too high at the end.
I only boil my belgian wit recipe for 30 minutes, because I can lower my pre-boil volume accordingly as well as get the IBUs I want in it.
Hop utilization is a function of time; there is no rule that you need to get "full potential" out of your hop additions.
I only boil my belgian wit recipe for 30 minutes, because I can lower my pre-boil volume accordingly as well as get the IBUs I want in it.
Hop utilization is a function of time; there is no rule that you need to get "full potential" out of your hop additions.
hepcat
Well-Known Member
Apparently he's not trying to add bitterness with that hop schedule, just some flavor/aroma.
broadbill said:
Good point on the volume reduction.
I guess if I recalculate my Sparge volume for less boil off, I could do a 45 min boil.
The reason for all this is I'm using Galena hops and I would rather use a full oz. I guess I could use .5 oz at 60 and then .5 oz at say 20. I've got EKG at 15. This is a milk stout, so I don't want it too hoppy (seems weird to even say that). Just trying to think.
No, the 45 minute hops are bittering hops. They will give you less IBUs than a 60 minute addition, but not a ton less, depending on AAUs. Flavor and/or aroma hops are added near the end of the boil, usually after 20 minutes left in the boil. Anything added before about 20 minutes left will contribute to bitterness, but not that much in the way of flavor.
hepcat
Well-Known Member
"...my first hop addition is at 45 min. Is there any reason to boil for 60 min...." FreshZ
Maybe he didn't word that part of his question clearly, i understand hop utilization and based my response on what he wrote.
Yes, that's right. The first addition is at 45 minutes. That's 15 minutes less than the traditional 60 minutes, but it's not that uncommon.
That just means a few less IBUs than a 60 minute boil. But it will not impart much at all in the way of flavor (just like with a 60 minute addition) and no aroma to speak of at all. It'll be just like a 60 minute addition, except added at 45 minutes instead of 60 minutes. I've done that myself a time or two, when I wanted to use up a whole ounce of bittering hops but didn't want all the IBUs I'd get at 60 minutes. So a 45 minute addition will give less IBUs but still "work" as a bittering hop.
TyTanium
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Is this an AG batch, or an extract batch? If it's AG, I'd probably go ahead and do the 60 minute boil, just to not screw up my volumes (since I know my boil off in an hour) but add the hops at 45 minutes they way you've planned.
hepcat
Well-Known Member
The confusion here is I believe, the use of AT preceding boil time in his statement which means to me the wort has been boiling for 45 minutes.
Apparently, it means the exact opposite to you: AT 45 minutes to you, means boil time remaining.
And quite frankly, it makes more sense the way I interpret it.
And I am compelled to tell you again, I understand hop utilization since you keep explaining it.
hepcat
Well-Known Member
Yeah we all tend to butcher the english language when posting, and it leads to alot of confusion, no doubt, which has nothing to do with my grasp and understanding of hop utilization, cheers.
As was mentioned, boiling times are expressed from when the hops are added to the boil, so 45 minute hops are added with 45 minutes left in the boil.
A typical recipe will have hops added at 60/15/5 minutes, that is with 60 minutes remaining, 15 minutes remaining, and 5 minutes remaining. That is the way it's expressed, and it has nothing to do with understanding utilization. If it means the "exact opposite" to me, whether you believe it makes sense or not, it's just the way it is.
I don't think any butchering of language was done here, although I agree there was some confusion. He was pretty clear that the first hops were going to be added at 45 minutes. If he said adding them "at 15 minutes", that would have been clearly at 15 minutes left in the boil as well. It's a pretty standard way to talk about recipes and adding hops.
hepcat
Well-Known Member
Thanks for proving my point:
"A typical recipe will have hops added at 60/15/5 minutes, that is with 60 minutes remaining, 15 minutes remaining, and 5 minutes remaining. That is the way it's expressed...." Yooper
So you DO get it. Good.
See what a difference one word makes.
Thanks again.
"A typical recipe will have hops added at 60/15/5 minutes, that is with 60 minutes remaining, 15 minutes remaining, and 5 minutes remaining. That is the way it's expressed...." Yooper
So you DO get it. Good.
See what a difference one word makes.
Thanks again.
TyTanium said:
Didn't mean to start anything.
Yes I meant adding the hops with 45 min left, not after 45 min have elapsed.
I also get understand that hop utilization will go down and that's exactly what I was looking for. I've just always added my first hops at the beginning of the boil (60). Since I'm not adding them til 45, I was just trying to save the extra 15 min.
Good point about the boil off though. I will stick with a 60 min boil. Ty.
I didn't "prove your point" at all, in fact, just the opposite. I explained it like that so YOU'D get it. Everybody else did. Most people don't need the word "remaining" as it is simply something that is understood by brewers. I added it there, just for you, so you'd attempt to understand the brewing language and terms. Everyone else understood, and your inability to accept that maybe you were the one misunderstanding and insisting you understood hops utilization (more than once) means it was repeated until you "got it". I did get it- a very long long time ago.
Instead of keeping such a know-everything attitude, maybe you should try reading carefully. Maybe you'd learn something that we all already know. This thread got totally dragged off topic by YOU and your inability to understand brewing language and being argumentative and a know-it-all just makes you seem silly.
hepcat
Well-Known Member
Blah blah blah. I'll take silly any day, over crochety.
Boil time is expressed ass backwards. Got it.
Hey you look anything like that avatar.
You dress like that on brew day? LOL.
Boil time is expressed ass backwards. Got it.
Hey you look anything like that avatar.
You dress like that on brew day? LOL.
Well, someone seems to be compensating for something here. But I guess I sorta resemble that avatar, that's why I chose it. I'd rather be crotchety than stupid any day, but it's probably my age showing. I have little patience for people who argue over things they don't understand and I may seem crotchety (you spelled it wrong, Einstein, btw) after three or four times saying the same thing as nicely as possible.
In any case, the "boil time is expressed ass backwards" may be one way to think of it if it helps you in the future.
But if there are any newer brewers following this thread, here is an explanation that may help them (and will lead exactly back to the actual topic of this thread):
The length of the boil is determined by many things, including ingredients and desired outcome especially by all-grain brewers. For example, many brewers routinely do 90 minute boils, although don't normally start their hopping until 60 minutes.
If the boil time was actually time INto the boil, think of hard that would be to explain in a recipe! I do 75 minute boils, so when would a "45 minute hop addition" go, if it was INto the boil instead of "@45 minutes". What about Jamil Z? He routinely does 90 minute boils. Other brewers do 60 minute boils. Hopbursted beers have the first hops added with only 20 minutes left in the boil, no matter how long the boil is. Extract brewers can get by with only boiling as long as the longest hop addition, and sometimes they used prehopped extract which doesn't even require a boil!
It would be very difficult to communicate how to do hops additions after a set length of time in all of those cases. That's probably the reason that brewing recipes all are standardized, and when a hops addition is @15 mins, it's understood that it is with 15 minutes left in the boil, no matter how long ago you started.
When the OP asked about needing to boil for 15 minutes before adding his 45 minute hops, it was understood that the 45 minute hops were his bittering addition and not 45 minutes into the boil. That's typical for brewing recipes, and is important for beginning brewers to grasp.
What I recommend for most people is a timer that goes from 1 hour to 0. You can see it, and follow your recipe. The 60 minute hops go in when the timer is started, and as it ticks down to 0, the additions (especially "weird additions" like citrus peel or whirlfloc or Irish moss) go it at the right time. When there is 15 minutes left, typically some hops go in and sometimes Irish moss or whirlfloc (which I recommend). When the timer hits 0, the flame is turned off and chilling begun.
Anyway, I've used 45 minutes hops in the past when wanting to use up a whole ounce instead of .85 ounces at 60 minutes, and it's worked just fine. For an extract batch, I would only boil as long as my earliest hops addition. For an AG batch, I still would boil for 60 minutes (0r 90 minutes if the grainbill had a large percentage of pilsner malt) but that is more to hit my volumes due to the amount I sparge with and my typical boil volume.
Something to keep in mind is that the hops release different flavors at longer boil times. Sixty minutes is the time recommended to get not just the AAU but the desired flavor as well. Changing the boil time will change both the AAU and the flavor!
broadbill
Well-Known Member
AAU stands for alpha acid units and is an indicator of the amount of hop acids that can be isomerized, dissolved into beer wort and contribute to bitterness. It does not change with boil time as it depends on the hop itself (the cultivar, where it was grown, etc. etc).
Longer boil times increase the utilization of the available hop acids and leads to higher IBU (international bittering units) levels in the wort. This is a lab-derived measure of the bitterness of beer.
I'm not sure what flavors you are talking about, so I can't comment on that specifically.
Yes, sorry to confuse IBU with AAU and vice versus. I meant boil time effects IBU. Thanks.
By taste, I'm referring to the discussion in Palmer's _How_to_Brew_, pp. 42ff, and in Daniel's _Designing_Great_Beers_, Chs 9-10. I'm really not a hopspert, so I suggest reading those guys.
Palmer says, "there is some improvement in the isomerization between 45 and 90 minutes, but only a small improvement in longer times."
And, "by adding the hops midway through the boil, a compromise between isomerization of the alpha acids and evaporation of the aromatics is achieved...."
There are several statements about bittering hops by Daniel's on p. 83.
It appears to me that hop flavor is effected by boil time, and that's the reason for the timing, quantities, and types of the various additions.
By taste, I'm referring to the discussion in Palmer's _How_to_Brew_, pp. 42ff, and in Daniel's _Designing_Great_Beers_, Chs 9-10. I'm really not a hopspert, so I suggest reading those guys.
Palmer says, "there is some improvement in the isomerization between 45 and 90 minutes, but only a small improvement in longer times."
And, "by adding the hops midway through the boil, a compromise between isomerization of the alpha acids and evaporation of the aromatics is achieved...."
There are several statements about bittering hops by Daniel's on p. 83.
It appears to me that hop flavor is effected by boil time, and that's the reason for the timing, quantities, and types of the various additions.
It appears to me that hop flavor is effected by boil time, and that's the reason for the timing, quantities, and types of the various additions.
It definitely is- but I would say that there is very little difference in flavor between 30 minute hops and 60 minute hops. It's like the flavor gets "lost" if the hops are boiled longer than about 20-25 minutes although some varieties (like chinook) do maintain a bit of flavor that an expert might be able to discern.
broadbill
Well-Known Member
Inadequate for what? An IPA, yes...a porter...maybe not.
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