Any idea where this dipa recipe went wrong

[olotti]

I brewed this AG batch on 3/3/15 and am now down to my last few bottles but it never really hit the mark for what I was going for which was something in the dirt wolf, new glarus scream, or enjoy by arena. I was going for a easy drinking, low malt presence, juicy hopped dipa at around 9%. First this took almost 6 weeks to bottle condition to get any head and it was kept in my closet at around 70 deg, it wasn't until I moved it to my second floor week 5 of bottle conditioning where it's 73-75 deg did it even get any semblance of carbonation. I don't know if the long carbonation lag time started to strip the hops out of this but that may have been a factor. I left this in primary for 14 days and dry hopped for 5 days at room temp and two day cold crash in primary as I do all my beers. Also at day 5 when primary fermentation was done I moved the carboy upstairs into 70deg temps to let the yeast finish out so I would hit my FG before dry hopping. So here's the recipe let me know your thoughts and if what I mentioned above may have any clues to why this disspointed or maybe it's just me lol.

8# mo
7# 2 row
1# carapils
1# dextrose

.55oz columbus fwh
.25oz nuggett 30min- wasn't part of the plan I just had it around
1oz amarillo and .5oz simcoe @15 min
1oz amarillo and .5oz citra @10min
1oz citra .5oz columbus .5oz simcoe @5min
1oz Amarillo 1oz simcoe .5oz columbus .5oz citra 30 min hopstand at 160-175 deg
Dry hop 5 days room temp and 2 day cold crash with 2oz citra, 2oz simcoe, 1oz columbus

Mashed at 149 for 90 min with no mash out and dble sparge to collect 8.5 gal with a 90 min boil
Hit all my PBG and OG numbers but my FG projected was 1.010 and ended up 1.006-8
Ibus are 104.8 per beersmith with ibu/sg ratio of 1.339
Yeast was 3rd gen washed wlp001 with a large starter, max ferm temp was 66deg
I bottle from a bucket and carbed to 2.5 vols with corn sugar which is what I carb all my or most my beers at.

In the end even when it was fairly fresh it just tasted a little boozy and bitter lacking any real define able hop taste although it had promise but it wasnt carbed at all now its just bitter, boozy hop water., I'm guessing oxidation has taken ahold which seems common as most of my beers seem to drop off with hops at the two month mark. Very disappointing. Any thoughts of how this happened in regards to why the taste was off from the beginning so I can correct it next time. I'll prob adjust this recipe anyway but want to learn from any mistakes you see here. Lmk if there's any info missing you may need.

 

[olotti]

Bump

 

[SuperCoolGuy-Brewing]

I'm not a familiar with brewing DIPA's, but I would be tempted to suggest that you used too many varieties of hops at the same times which lead to muddled hop flavors. Also, because your yeast finished so dry the alcohol came through more aggressively, and on top of that you have pretty minimal malt backbone in the first place to balance the hop bomb you brewed.

To fix this, my suggestion would be to drop dextrose and replace it with something like Rye malt and perhaps consider switching the Carapils with something that has a slightly more assertive malt character. I understand you want a minimal profile, but in something like a DIPA minimal malt profiles should (probably) still be more substantial than a regular IPA. In any case, you will want to avoid crystal malts as you have done, and probably don't want to venture too far into Munich/vienna. Just do some research looking for character malts that aren't caramelly or sweet in taste i think.

Hope that helps!

 

[Aonghus]

I am thinking that the strong A.B.V. and that you did not add bottling yeast may have something to do with the long time to carbonate. You also stated that the yeast was 3rd generation, perhaps it was just too pooped to pop!

 

[olotti]

I am thinking that the strong A.B.V. and that you did not add bottling yeast may have something to do with the long time to carbonate. You also stated that the yeast was 3rd generation, perhaps it was just too pooped to pop!

I def think this was a factor as I've used this washed yeast beforehand it works great on a 6-7% ipa but after the fact even though I made a huge starter it may have stressed the yeast out to much to carb therefore as it sat carbonating at 70deg oxygenation took over and started to rob the beer of the hops. I know from here on out anything over 9% will get hit with cbc-1 at bottling, it's worked wonders for my RIS at 11.4% and 10.4% abvs that were carbed in 2-4 weeks. Live and learn that's the great part of brewing. Thanks for the thoughts.

 

[atom]

have you brewed hoppy beers with success in the past? water profile?

 

[olotti]

have you brewed hoppy beers with success in the past? water profile?

I have in fact received quite a few compliments on my past beers whether it was one of my own or a clone. While I wouldn't say super hoppy as I like balance they have ranged in the 55-75 ibu range for the most part. As far as water I just used bottled spring water for the moment, although I'd like to get into using RO water and adding the adjuncts.

 

[bigdaddybrew]

For the super simple grain bill this beer needed a higher finishing gravity to stand up to the alcohol and hops. Mashing at 154f might have helped.

I would have used 40l crystal instead of the carapils to add some flavor and color, skipped the dextrose and mashed at 150f and perhaps some Munich or Vienna to add some malt flavor.

At bottling I would have added some fresh yeast to aid carbonation as higher ABV beers can be hard to bottle condition.

If oxidation is a "common" issue with your beers take care to minimize it especially if you want a beer to be good after more than a few weeks. Do you have a flaw in your process that is unnecessarily exposing the beer to air? Secondary racking, frequently opening your fermenter, leaky racking hose or any splashing or stirring of the fermented beer?

Although many homebrewers have dismissed hot side aeration as a concern, commercial brewers work hard to prevent it because they believe it affects the shelf life of their beer. Taking measures to avoid it might help.

 

[m00ps]

I agree if it tasted muddles even when pretty youngn the issue is probably oxidation. That's why I keg all my IPAs and bottle from the keg if needed. Oxygen just rips IPAs apart. There not a good way to keep oxygen out of the process with somethign that takes as long as bottling

The other issue may be hop utilization. Maybe a hopstand at the end would help you get that punch

 

[g-star]

I'll disagree with most others here and say a DIPA should have little to no crystal malt and the dextrose is appropriate. You want a dry beer.

Waiting 6 weeks for it to carb probably didn't help. Did you add extra yeast along with the sugar at bottling? That seemed to speed things up for me when I used to bottle.

Next time, move all your flavor/aroma hops to a big whirlpool addition. Not a fan of the 15 - 5min additions...you're just boiling off the most aromatic oils that way.

I would also recommend you pay close attention to mash/kettle pH...you want it down below 5.3. A high level of sulfate can also help express hopiness in these types of beers.

 

[sandyeggoxj]

Nothing wrong with the number of hop varieties. Your fg is fine. Your grain bill looks great.

I like to target an abv of 9 with a fg around 1.006-008. I dump a bunch of gypsum into the mash to target 450ppm of so4 in the mash with a grist ratio of 1.6qt/#. I don't add any other salts in the process. I fly sparge but that doesn't matter much. The mash salts keep my pH around 5.35 in the mash as measured by a calibrated mw102 meter.

I think you need to move the fwh to a 90 or 60 minute addition and at least double it. You need good, strong bittering to support the juicy hop flavors you're looking for. Don't worry about calculate ibu. Shoot for 180-200 calculated. Your beer won't be that high but the formulas have flaws and can't compute big dipas.

You will also need to nail down oxidation. That isn't helping you right now.

 

[Weezy]

What taste makes you think its oxidized? Bitter and boozy are not good examples of oxidation. Bitter and boozy sounds like yeast stress. How are you controlling ferm temps? At all? "in my closet about 70 degrees" is a sure fire way to average beer. Consider a water bath or something better to control temps. For a big beer, where yeast go wild, its even more critical.

Also I'd recommend fewer varieties of hops as well. Hops can get muddy quickly if they're not carefully selected flavors. Recommend picking 3.

 

[bigdaddybrew]

Nothing wrong with the number of hop varieties. Your fg is fine. Your grain bill looks great.

I like to target an abv of 9 with a fg around 1.006-008. I dump a bunch of gypsum into the mash to target 450ppm of so4 in the mash with a grist ratio of 1.6qt/#. I don't add any other salts in the process. I fly sparge but that doesn't matter much. The mash salts keep my pH around 5.35 in the mash as measured by a calibrated mw102 meter.

I think you need to move the fwh to a 90 or 60 minute addition and at least double it. You need good, strong bittering to support the juicy hop flavors you're looking for. Don't worry about calculate ibu. Shoot for 180-200 calculated. Your beer won't be that high but the formulas have flaws and can't compute big dipas.

You will also need to nail down oxidation. That isn't helping you right now.

The OP calculates his IBU at 105 with a Final Gravity at 1.006 complaining that he has "bitter boozy hop water" and you think his Final Gravity is good and his IBUs are too low? Wow!

Even regular IPAs have a Final Gravity range of 1.010-1.018 to give the beer some backbone to stand up to an IBU range of 40-70.

 

[bigdaddybrew]

Here is an article that might help...
http://byo.com/stories/issue/item/1702-imperial-ipa-style-profile

This article from BYO magazine by Jamil Zainasheff validates the use of some simple sugar to get a dry finish of 1.010-1015 with an IBU of about 100. So the OP was not far off just needed to mash a little higher and add a bit of crystal...at least according to Zainasheff.

 

[atom]

The OP calculates his IBU at 105 with a Final Gravity at 1.006 complaining that he has "bitter hop water" and you think his Final Gravity is good and his IBUs are too low? Wow!

Even regular IPAs have a Final Gravity range of 1.010-1.018 to give the beer some backbone to stand up to an IBU range of 40-70.

ever have enjoy by (or the clone)? it's all base malt (50/50 english/american 2-row) and sugar....and it's delicious. a fg of 1.006-8 is a smidge low, but not out of the question for a diap.

 

[tagz]

Bottle conditioning and 8 weeks to glass would be my biggest concerns. Hoppy beers are best kegged imo.

 

[bigdaddybrew]

ever have enjoy by (or the clone)? it's all base malt (50/50 english/american 2-row) and sugar....and it's delicious. a fg of 1.006-8 is a smidge low, but not out of the question for a diap.

Stone Enjoy By...
http://enjoyby.stonebrewing.com/

According to their website an IBU of 88. I don't see a Final gravity posted. 1.006-008 might work with 88 IBUs but maybe 1.006 at an IBU of 104.8 is just too thin and too bitter?

Here is a Blog post with well researched information on that beer...
http://www.bertusbrewery.com/2013/04/ipa-clone-series-stone-enjoy-by-ipa.html

This brewer mashed at 147f with a recipe simlar to the OP's to reach a Final Gravity of 1.012 at an IBU of 90 but he was hoping to get it a bit drier on his next version. So the OP's recipe might be solid but maybe his yeast choice made it finish too low? And perhaps oxidation is killing the flavor?

 

[olotti]

For the super simple grain bill this beer needed a higher finishing gravity to stand up to the alcohol and hops. Mashing at 154f might have helped.

I would have used 40l crystal instead of the carapils to add some flavor and color, skipped the dextrose and mashed at 150f and perhaps some Munich or Vienna to add some malt flavor.

At bottling I would have added some fresh yeast to aid carbonation as higher ABV beers can be hard to bottle condition.

If oxidation is a "common" issue with your beers take care to minimize it especially if you want a beer to be good after more than a few weeks. Do you have a flaw in your process that is unnecessarily exposing the beer to air? Secondary racking, frequently opening your fermenter, leaky racking hose or any splashing or stirring of the fermented beer?

Although many homebrewers have dismissed hot side aeration as a concern, commercial brewers work hard to prevent it because they believe it affects the shelf life of their beer. Taking measures to avoid it might help.

Thanks for the thoughts. I try very hard to avoid any splashing when I move the carboy upstairs to cold crash, I only open the lid to take a gravity reading and then again to dry hop, and I really try to be careful when racking to bottling bucket, no real splashing just the whirlpooling as it fills up the bucket. I always notice little bubbles when I fill the bottle but I figure that's normal when using the bottle filler, maybe it's not.

I def think I'm gonna mash this style a little higher next time. I imagine a beer can have body in the mouthfeel but be dry on the finish so I may still keep the sugar, I hear it also helps pronounce the hop flavors more.

I've also made a pact to myself that at 9% or higher it gets cbc-1 at bottling. I excused that yeast on both my ris at 11.4 and 10.4% and they were both carbed in 3-4 weeks.

 

[olotti]

What taste makes you think its oxidized? Bitter and boozy are not good examples of oxidation. Bitter and boozy sounds like yeast stress. How are you controlling ferm temps? At all? "in my closet about 70 degrees" is a sure fire way to average beer. Consider a water bath or something better to control temps. For a big beer, where yeast go wild, its even more critical.

Also I'd recommend fewer varieties of hops as well. Hops can get muddy quickly if they're not carefully selected flavors. Recommend picking 3.

I'd basically just say that there aren't any discernible hop flavors, u don't drink it and go oh I taste the columbus dankness or the simcoe pine and citrus it's just like a bitter muddled mess. I've found that my beers once bottled seem to have a shelf life of about 2 months before they lose the distinct hop punch which I'm assuming happens in the early part of oxidation effects.

I ferment in my basement where the temps even during active primary fermentation hit 68 my basement stays cool enough to keep the temps down. This time I moved the carboy upstairs once primary fementation was over to help the yeast finish out since I was shooting for the lower FG. I thought it was ok to increase the temp a little when primary fermentation is over since from what I understand that's the only real time that off flavors can happen.

It could've been yeast stress. I used a recently washed batch of wlp001 that I used on two other 6% ipas so I thought this yeast could handle the higher abv and lower target FG. I made a 4l step starter since I didn't have a Stirplate.

I think I'm going to simplify the hop schedule and not try to get so fancy

 

[bigdaddybrew]

Sounds like solid a brewing process but bubbles when using the bottle filler? Maybe you have a bit of an air leak? This might explain the oxidation and lack of flavor?

 

[olotti]

Bottle conditioning and 8 weeks to glass would be my biggest concerns. Hoppy beers are best kegged imo.

Yeah I kept thinking this the whole time it was sitting not carbing. I was afraid I was losing the hops. The first few I had when it was pretty flat really had promise, it actually was juicy and dank. I think the recipe needs tweaking but adding yeast at bottling to get this beer into glass sooner may just change everything.

 

[olotti]

Sounds like solid a brewing process but bubbles when using the bottle filler? Maybe you have a bit of an air leak? This might explain the oxidation and lack of flavor?

You mentioned Yeast. I used a washed wlp001 that was used on two prior 6% ipas and I made a 4l step starter since I don't have a stirplate. From what I gather this yeast shouldve still been viable enough for this beer and it shouldn't have stressed it out. It def did the job and I didn't rewash that batch I just dumped it due to the higher abv. Would u use a diff yeast next time. I was thinking of going with the SD Super wlp090 or wlp007 next time since I'll need new yeast for that batch.

 

[atom]

I was thinking of going with the SD Super wlp090 or wlp007 next time since I'll need new yeast for that batch.

both are great choices for ipas. i love 007 in a dipa.

 

[Weezy]

Lack of hop character would make me look to the time between brew and pour before thinking oxidation. Muddled hop character can be attributed to the many varieties used and your palate not being able to pick out the individual flavors and aromas that you hoped for


If your basement is generally 68 or so, consider a big water bath at room temp and put your fermenter in it to better keep the ferm temp at 68. A big beer will want to run hot and your actual temp was likely higher than you wanted. This will get you boozy and bitter.

Did you check mash pH? Its a very light grain bill and pH could have been high.

Definitely save your pennies for a bar fridge and a couple kegs setup.

 

[olotti]

Lack of hop character would make me look to the time between brew and pour before thinking oxidation. Muddled hop character can be attributed to the many varieties used and your palate not being able to pick out the individual flavors and aromas that you hoped for


If your basement is generally 68 or so, consider a big water bath at room temp and put your fermenter in it to better keep the ferm temp at 68. A big beer will want to run hot and your actual temp was likely higher than you wanted. This will get you boozy and bitter.

Did you check mash pH? Its a very light grain bill and pH could have been high.

Definitely save your pennies for a bar fridge and a couple kegs setup.

I meant my basement is usually around 60-61 therefore when I check the fermometer according to that and of course it may not be 100% accurate the temps hover around 66-68 during the active fermentation.

Mash pH def could've been out of whack but that is one road of brewing I have yet to travel down so I am unequipped at the moment to check any of those things.

Yeah a five tap freezer will b my ultimate goal.

 

[bigdaddybrew]

You mentioned Yeast. I used a washed wlp001 that was used on two prior 6% ipas and I made a 4l step starter since I don't have a stirplate. From what I gather this yeast shouldve still been viable enough for this beer and it shouldn't have stressed it out. It def did the job and I didn't rewash that batch I just dumped it due to the higher abv. Would u use a diff yeast next time. I was thinking of going with the SD Super wlp090 or wlp007 next time since I'll need new yeast for that batch.

Sounds like your recipe and process was good and your predicted final gravity of 1.010 was about right. Since your final gravity was low I would keep the entire process the same but choose one way to increase the Final gravity...
Mash 2 degrees higher? or
Reduce sugar by half? or
Try a less attentuating yeast?

This is a good blog about a similar beer...
http://www.bertusbrewery.com/2013/04/ipa-clone-series-stone-enjoy-by-ipa.html

This brewer used WLP007 Dry English yeast to finish at 1.012 but wanted it a bit drier so he talked about using the WLP 001 or WLP 090. The opposite of your situation so maybe the WLP007 would finish a bit higher and add some English yeast character that might help the flavor?

Or maybe an even less attenuating yeast?

Here is an excellent yeast chart that might help...
https://byo.com/resources/yeast

 

[sandyeggoxj]

I have brewed DIPAs with 007 and 001. I like the flavor of 001 a bit better but it does finish about 2-3 points lower with all other variables the same. I disagree with the argument that you need to raise the FG. You are in a fine place with 1.010. Based on experience I prefer a lower FG but ymmv.

I think you need to fix the oxidation. If you brewed this beer again and for carbonated in the keg I think it would be great. I do think you need more hops but I am a hop head.

There is something I haven't seen talked about here and that is hop storage and age. How old are the hops? How did you store them? Hops can be several years old and still make fine beer but they must be kept as cold as possible and with as little o2 exposure as possible.

 

[olotti]

I have brewed DIPAs with 007 and 001. I like the flavor of 001 a bit better but it does finish about 2-3 points lower with all other variables the same. I disagree with the argument that you need to raise the FG. You are in a fine place with 1.010. Based on experience I prefer a lower FG but ymmv.

I think you need to fix the oxidation. If you brewed this beer again and for carbonated in the keg I think it would be great. I do think you need more hops but I am a hop head.

There is something I haven't seen talked about here and that is hop storage and age. How old are the hops? How did you store them? Hops can be several years old and still make fine beer but they must be kept as cold as possible and with as little o2 exposure as possible.

In regards to oxidation isn't that just part of the process when bottling, there's no way I can purge the bottles with co2 and the process of the beer flowing into the bottle will introduce O2 into the solution. I mean I can minimize the chances of oxidation by not splashing the carboy, not splashing when racking to bottling bucket, minimizing exposure but it just seems that oxidation is just an evil of bottling homebrew. I guess it just got bad with this beer because it sat so long 4-6 weeks in 70-74 deg temps to get it to carb. My other beers have never shown any real effects of oxidation until they were two months or older but I hear that's the shelf life of a lot of homebrew and even commercial stuff, hence the fresher the better.

The hops were bought the day before and kept in the fridge so I'm not really worried about that.

 

[bigdaddybrew]

I disagree with the argument that you need to raise the FG. You are in a fine place with 1.010. Based on experience I prefer a lower FG but ymmv.

Agreed 1.010 sounds good except his Final gravity was 1.006 so he was looking to make an adjustment.

 

[olotti]

Agreed 1.010 sounds good except his Final gravity was 1.006 so he was looking to make an adjustment.

I've already figured I was going to try this next time at 152 instead of 149. I'm trying some new things like mashing thinner, still no mash out but then doing a single sparge. See what happened with this beer and the five others I made before and after was I was mashing for 90 min with no mash out, vorlouf, collect then dbl sparging to get my final volume but what I wasn't realizing was hat without a mash out my first runnings were still denaturing so that plus the 90 mash time ended up being like a 120 min mash and all the FG of my last five beers dropped 5-9 pts below projected FG and yes they all had that extra sharp bitter bite to them since it just throws the ibu's off I'm assuming. So I made a batch Sunday with a thin mash and got 90% mash efficiency from my first runnings so for the next try at this ill b doing the same although to collect 8.5 gal I'll need to dble sparge so ill def do a mash out before collecting first runnings, I use a 10 gal cooler with false bottom as my mlt.

 

[bigdaddybrew]

I always notice little bubbles when I fill the bottle but I figure that's normal when using the bottle filler, maybe it's not.

When using my spring loaded bottle filler I don't notice bubbles.
If your bottle filler or bottling spigot are drawing in air this would oxidize your beer. Maybe you have a poorly fitting tubing on your bottle filler or racking cane that is drawing in air?

I know many homebrewers dismiss the affects of hot side aeration but I think it can have a negative effect on flavor especially after beers are weeks or months old. It is a major concern for commercial brewers with shelf life considerations. Are you splashing hot wort while mashing or sparging or doing any overly aggressive stirring when cooling?

 

[bigdaddybrew]

I think if you keep your process, recipe and yeast the same then raise your mash temp to 152f that should do the trick. I'd worry if you change another part your process you might throw it off in one direction or another.

I like a 60 minute mash, 1.25 quarts of water per pound of grain. I usually drain my first running and then do two additional batch sparges of equal amounts. I don't usually do a mash out but I mostly brew lower gravity beers with a dry finish so any additional conversion that occurs doesn't matter. The key for me is trying to use the same process so a change in mash temp will have a predictable result.

 

[olotti]

When using my spring loaded bottle filler I don't notice bubbles.
If your bottle filler or bottling spigot are drawing in air this would oxidize your beer. Maybe you have a poorly fitting tubing on your bottle filler or racking cane that is drawing in air?

I know many homebrewers dismiss the affects of hot side aeration but I think it can have a negative effect on flavor especially after beers are weeks or months old. It is a major concern for commercial brewers with shelf life considerations. Are you splashing hot wort while mashing or sparging or doing any overly aggressive stirring when cooling?

I'll go and check my connection to my bottle filler that could be the only bad connection I have but its just a piece of tube that fits over the bottle filler that connects it to the spigot. I get zero bubbles during racking to the bucket.

As for hot side aeration I have a tube that goes from my spigot on mlt so when I drain it just whirlpools to the kettle. After collecting my usual 7.5 gal I do stir lightly to mix up the wort then take my refractometer reading to find my PBG otherwise I just pick up the kettle and move it to the burner and start boiling.

 

[olotti]

I think if you keep your process, recipe and yeast the same then raise your mash temp to 152f that should do the trick. I'd worry if you change another part your process you might throw it off in one direction or another.

I like a 60 minute mash, 1.25 quarts of water per pound of grain. I usually drain my first running and then do two additional batch sparges of equal amounts. I don't usually do a mash out but I mostly brew lower gravity beers with a dry finish so any additional conversion that occurs doesn't matter. The key for me is trying to use the same process so a change in mash temp will have a predictable result.

Ok thanks for he thoughts on all your replies. I'll have to keep my process the same for higher gravity beers ie 1.25qt/lb-1.33qt/lb mash water and dble sparge because my mlt can't hold a large grain bill with a thinner 1.60qt/lb mash and a single sparge as I'll never hit my volume, I lose 2 gal from my initial mash due to the dead space under the false bottom. I use beersmith and I reduce my efficiency for high gravity beers and also increase my boil volume to 8.5 gal with a 90 min boil. I would like to replicate the process, adjust the hop bill, use the same yeast and then add cbc-1 at bottling and see if that doesn't do the trick.

 

[olotti]

When using my spring loaded bottle filler I don't notice bubbles.
If your bottle filler or bottling spigot are drawing in air this would oxidize your beer. Maybe you have a poorly fitting tubing on your bottle filler or racking cane that is drawing in air?

I know many homebrewers dismiss the affects of hot side aeration but I think it can have a negative effect on flavor especially after beers are weeks or months old. It is a major concern for commercial brewers with shelf life considerations. Are you splashing hot wort while mashing or sparging or doing any overly aggressive stirring when cooling?

In regards to the tubing both racking and bottle filler connection do you think if I threw some tight fitting say electrical tape around the connections that would help. Just spit balling ideas here.

 

[bigdaddybrew]

It might. I use a stainless clamp on my racking cane/tubing connection just to be sure. As for the tubing connection between my spigot and my bottling wand I make sure is long enough to fit all the way over the spigot end and at least an inch onto the wand. There might be a bit of air as it begins to flow but should eventually be all beer no bubbles from the spigot/tubing and wand. If it seems to have a flow of bubbles it's probably sucking air. Overall your process sounds good.