Any benefits to boiling more than 60 minutes?

[DromJohn]

I brewed a clone of Shmaltz Sweet Sixteen.
Shmaltz wrote: "Once you get to the kettle portion that is where things got weird- we had 16 different hop additions spaced 16 minutes apart, ...., but a good long boil is going to help you really evaporate off a lot of that disgusting water that will leave lots of sugar behind to make that yummy alcohol."

I ended up doing two 120 minutes boils. I loved the outcome.

 

[lump42]

I only buy DME to make starters, and wouldn't consider using it in an actual beer. I'm AG to the bone.

Go AG all the way or go home. Mash your own starter wort, I dare ya.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

Maillard reactions.

 

[NineMileStyle]

Maillard reactions.

Yes! Indeed...heat, sugar, amino acids....MAGIC YUMMY!

 

[tll77]

Go AG all the way or go home. Mash your own starter wort, I dare ya.

Done. And canned for future use.

 

[applescrap]

Trying to brew an all-grain bourbon county stout clone with an OG of 1.127 is pretty difficult due to the low extraction efficiency caused by such a thick mash. Additional mash tuns aren't the answer, collecting more pre-boil wort of a lower gravity and concentrating it with an extended boil is the answer.

Jon Blichmann has a great beersmith podcast on hg brewing for anyone really interested in hg brewing. I think you would enjoy it.

To answer the question on boil length the great Dr. Banforth has a podcast on this as well. He enumerates the benefits of longer boils. He also reccomends vigorous boiling and also I think says 90 mins for extract. Darkening of color, hop isomerization, and precipitation are some examples he goes into iirc. While i beew for time so dont employ longer boils, I cant help but wonder that even if I couldnt tell in a blind tasting if there are perhaps benefits to a longer boil at the hb scale. Sadly, not being happy with over a 2.5 hour 5g brewday I will stick with 45min boils for now until I have more time to experiment. I think it is a worthwhile consideration. Absolutely. And wow, who knew someone could talk about a boil for 60 minutes and easily keep my attention.

 

[couchsending]

Other factors to consider are elevation and pH. Always a 90 minute boil or longer for me.

 

[Kiln]

Loger boils are supposed help with clarity and shelf by life. I did a 3 hour boil once. the color did not change as drastic as was hoping. I wasn't convinced it was worth it.

 

[Jayjay1976]

Jon Blichmann has a great beersmith podcast on hg brewing for anyone really interested in hg brewing. I think you would enjoy it.

To answer the question on boil length the great Dr. Banforth has a podcast on this as well. He enumerates the benefits of longer boils. He also reccomends vigorous boiling and also I think says 90 mins for extract. Darkening of color, hop isomerization, and precipitation are some examples he goes into iirc. While i beew for time so dont employ longer boils, I cant help but wonder that even if I couldnt tell in a blind tasting if there are perhaps benefits to a longer boil at the hb scale. Sadly, not being happy with over a 2.5 hour 5g brewday I will stick with 45min boils for now until I have more time to experiment. I think it is a worthwhile consideration. Absolutely. And wow, who knew someone could talk about a boil for 60 minutes and easily keep my attention.

Hey thanks for the tips!

 

[bracconiere]

Well...youre right, but most people who are doing a 90 minute boil will wait to add hops until the last 60 minutes.

Other factors to consider are elevation and pH. Always a 90 minute boil or longer for me.

Ever since i moved to 4,500ft instead of 1,000...it takes FOREVER to boil off.....i boil 13.5-14 gals, for like 3-4 hours to get it down to 10. i do wait until it's getting close to the target volume before adding hops though.

 

[Big Monk]

Ever since i moved to 4,500ft instead of 1,000...it takes FOREVER to boil off.....i boil 13.5-14 gals, for like 3-4 hours to get it down to 10. i do wait until it's getting close to the target volume before adding hops though.

This begs the question: Why not just boil a smaller volume? 4 gallons boil off on 14 gallons is nearly 30%.

I get the argument from someone who says, "I get flavors I like from boiling for longer." I don't agree with that as it differs from my experience, etc. I respect that opinion though.

But for someone where it's simply a volume/gravity thing, I would just plan better to hit my volumes and gravity on the nose.

The long and short: Boiling as a flavor component? Knock yourself out. Boiling to hit volume and gravity? That's crazy. Plan better or just get a bigger vessel!

As always, "Just my $0.02", "YMMV", "Opinions are like...", etc.

 

[Vale71]

Ever since i moved to 4,500ft instead of 1,000...it takes FOREVER to boil off.....i boil 13.5-14 gals, for like 3-4 hours to get it down to 10. i do wait until it's getting close to the target volume before adding hops though.

You should check your equipment. At your altitude you will be boiling at around 95°C but the amount of energy you need to boil off 1 kg of water increases only slightly (form 2256 KJ to around 2270 KJ) so you should get around the same boil-off you got before. Your hop utilization will obviously suffer though.

 

[couchsending]

Ever since i moved to 4,500ft instead of 1,000...it takes FOREVER to boil off.....i boil 13.5-14 gals, for like 3-4 hours to get it down to 10. i do wait until it's getting close to the target volume before adding hops though.

Why do you want that much boil off? It depends on the beer you’re making of course but for lighter beers you want to target between 5 and 10%, erring on the lower end if possible.
I would only want that high of a boil off if I was making some super strong stout.

I live at 7000 feet and was trying to boil for only 70 minutes for my Helles and Pils but was still getting some DMS. I had to up it to 90 minutes coupled with a decoction and a slightly elevated boil pH, and rapid cooling to below 180 in order to avoid DMS.

I think without the decoction I might have to boil for even longer.

The half life of the DMS precursor is 70 minutes at my elevation versus 35 at sea level. I boil at 201. DMS reduction is also faster at elevated pH levels.

 

[bracconiere]

This begs the question: Why not just boil a smaller volume? 4 gallons boil off on 14 gallons is nearly 30%.

I get the argument from someone who says, "I get flavors I like from boiling for longer." I don't agree with that as it differs from my experience, etc. I respect that opinion though.

But for someone where it's simply a volume/gravity thing, I would just plan better to hit my volumes and gravity on the nose.

The long and short: Boiling as a flavor component? Knock yourself out. Boiling to hit volume and gravity? That's crazy. Plan better or just get a bigger vessel!

As always, "Just my $0.02", "YMMV", "Opinions are like...", etc.

if i don't sparge with that much water i can't rinse the grain good enough...and i'd lose my 85-90% efficiency, thus increasing cost of beer. the NG i brew with is cheap, the home malt is more costly....

You should check your equipment. At your altitude you will be boiling at around 95°C but the amount of energy you need to boil off 1 kg of water increases only slightly (form 2256 KJ to around 2270 KJ) so you should get around the same boil-off you got before. Your hop utilization will obviously suffer though.

it surprises me also....i thought things were supposed to reduce quicker with less pressure? but i have to believe my eyes....

 

[bracconiere]

Why do you want that much boil off? It depends on the beer you’re making of course but for lighter beers you want to target between 5 and 10%, erring on the lower end if possible.
I would only want that high of a boil off if I was making some super strong stout.

I live at 7000 feet and was trying to boil for only 70 minutes for my Helles and Pils but was still getting some DMS. I had to up it to 90 minutes coupled with a decoction and a slightly elevated boil pH, and rapid cooling to below 180 in order to avoid DMS.

I think without the decoction I might have to boil for even longer.

The half life of the DMS precursor is 70 minutes at my elevation versus 35 at sea level. I boil at 201. DMS reduction is also faster at elevated pH levels.

i shoot for 1.062 every time... and brew 8%+ beers with the help of gluco, as said in post i was typing when you were typing....SPARGE, if i only sparge with a small amount i won't get all the mash washed of sugar....i'm not brewing extract here...lol

 

[Vale71]

it surprises me also....i thought things were supposed to reduce quicker with less pressure? but i have to believe my eyes....

Again, check your equipment because you must have an issue there. Unless you travelled though a black hole and ended up in some part of the universe were different laws of physics apply.
One would think thay with increasing altitude water would boil off more quickly, i.e. requiring less energy per unit of weight, but the opposite is actually true. If you reduce pressure than you need more energy to boil off the same amount of water, but the difference is still minuscule and cannot explain the huge discrepancies you're experiencing in your case.

 

[bracconiere]

Again, check your equipment because you must have an issue there. Unless you travelled though a black hole and ended up in some part of the universe were different laws of physics apply.
One would think thay with increasing altitude water would boil off more quickly, i.e. requiring less energy per unit of weight, but the opposite is actually true. If you reduce pressure than you need more energy to boil off the same amount of water, but the difference is still minuscule and cannot explain the huge discrepancies you're experiencing in your case.

honestly after the move, it has felt like i traveled interdimensionally! i think before i moved inside and started using my kitchen stove with bored orifices, it only took ~2 hours on the propane burner outside....but propane costs so much more, i didn't mind the extra hour. of practically free NG...

And check my equip for what? it's a 15 gal kettle? what would i check it for? lol a leaky faucet over head dripping water into it?

 

[Vale71]

I meant your heat source. Sorry, but I'm not familiar with the concept of "free NG", could you clarify that for me?

 

[bracconiere]

I meant your heat source. Sorry, but I'm not familiar with the concept of "free NG", could you clarify that for me?

Heat source is natural gas...yes that tacked on some time....but my gas bill hasn't changed....compared to propane tanks and my propane burner which costed me about 6 bucks a batch, to fill. or 6/8.88888888=67.5 cents a twelve pack! lol, i try and brew on the cheap!

I use my NG oven to kiln my malt for 12 hours. two burners to boil, and heat strike water. and sparge water...and my bill seems to be $20 a month, think it's the minimum fee for having gas service.... i even look at the A/C for a minute and my electric bill goes through the roof though...

 

[kevin58]

if i don't sparge with that much water i can't rinse the grain good enough...and i'd lose my 85-90% efficiency, thus increasing cost of beer. the NG i brew with is cheap, the home malt is more costly....

I think you are worrying far too much about your efficiency. It's not a race. Sparge to get the volume you need instead. It's not costing you that much in the end.

 

[Vale71]

Heat source is natural gas...yes that tacked on some time....but my gas bill hasn't changed....compared to propane tanks and my propane burner which costed me about 6 bucks a batch, to fill. or 6/8.88888888=67.5 cents a twelve pack! lol, i try and brew on the cheap!

I use my NG oven to kiln my malt for 12 hours. two burners to boil, and heat strike water. and sparge water...and my bill seems to be $20 a month, think it's the minimum fee for having gas service.... i even look at the A/C for a minute and my electric bill goes through the roof though...

Case closed, your new burner is not as powerful as the old one. But of course you can't beat free, so...

 

[bracconiere]

I think you are worrying far too much about your efficiency. It's not a race. Sparge to get the volume you need instead. It's not costing you that much in the end.

But every penny i save on a twelver is why i homebrew? i know most of you guys, are 'quality boys'...but i'm a cheap bastard!

Case closed, your new burner is not as powerful as the old one. But of course you can't beat free, so...

Amen! but i do get a rolling boil with it...

 

[Smellyglove]

Boil a wort for several hours, and the same wort done again, for one hour (but take into account evap losses) to get same OG. Notice the difference. It's a very simple experiment which will tell that there is a difference.

 

[rodwha]

This chart was shown to me long ago. It may not be accurate for every hop type. I’ve never seen anything else give what appears to be a definitive efficiency.

Because of it I’ve changed my bittering time to 70 min, my flavor time to 21 and the aroma to 7 unless I only have one late hop addition, which is often dropped at 14 mins.

 

[Smellyglove]

This chart was shown to me long ago. It may not be accurate for every hop type. I’ve never seen anything else give what appears to be a definitive efficiency.

Because of it I’ve changed my bittering time to 70 min, my flavor time to 21 and the aroma to 7 unless I only have one late hop addition, which is often dropped at 14 mins.

I thought that chart was dubunked years ago... It's nothing worth to follow.

 

[rodwha]

I thought that chart was dubunked years ago... It's nothing worth to follow.

I haven’t heard. Can you supply a link?

 

[NineMileStyle]

Ever since i moved to 4,500ft instead of 1,000...it takes FOREVER to boil off.....i boil 13.5-14 gals, for like 3-4 hours to get it down to 10. i do wait until it's getting close to the target volume before adding hops though.

Neither do I.
I just don't like to boil my hops for more than an hour.
My house is at about 4000'. I boil off about 1.5 gallons and hour.
Surface area of exposed liquid and boil vigor have a lot to do with boil-off.

 

[Smellyglove]

I haven’t heard. Can you supply a link?

You don't need a link for this..

For example. Aroma, why do you think people dryhop? And Dryhopping also contributes to flavor. The chart is just way off.

 

[couchsending]

You don't need a link for this..

For example. Aroma, why do you think people dryhop? And Dryhopping also contributes to flavor. The chart is just way off.

For heavily dry hoped beers yes but for subtle hoppy beers I’d say that chart is correct..

I’ve gone back to 20 and 5 minute hop additions lately and have been enjoying the results even in very hoppy “hazy” beers.

 

[Smellyglove]

For heavily dry hoped beers yes but for subtle hoppy beers I’d say that chart is correct..

I’ve gone back to 20 and 5 minute hop additions lately and have been enjoying the results even in very hoppy “hazy” beers.

You don't need to heavily dry hop them either. Timing is everything. You will get more arome from a hop the less you boil it, since you dont boil it away. Different types of hops yields a different result, and what result you're after comes down to what you want.. But you do not maximize aroma if you add a hop at 10minutes. No matter what hop, as the chart shows when you get to 0 minutes of boil.

According to that chart there should be no benefits of dryhopping, as you can see the curves go down to zero (10). So everybode who are doing knockout/WP/Dryhops are wrong?

That chart is old school and is not related to modern techniques at all.