Any benefits to boiling more than 60 minutes?

[couchsending]

You don't need to heavily dry hop them either. Timing is everything. You will get more arome from a hop the less you boil it, since you dont boil it away. Different types of hops yields a different result, and what result you're after comes down to what you want.. But you do not maximize aroma if you add a hop at 10minutes. No matter what hop, as the chart shows when you get to 0 minutes of boil.

According to that chart there should be no benefits of dryhopping, as you can see the curves go down to zero (10). So everybode who are doing knockout/WP/Dryhops are wrong?

That chart is old school and is not related to modern techniques at all.

I might disagree. There are thiols that benefit from time spent at boiling temps.

 

[Smellyglove]

I might disagree. There are thiols that benefit from time spent at boiling temps.

I don't argue with that. some hops taste better, or more correct according to a reference if you boil them for x amount of time. But you can't say that you get more aroma the longer you boil them, for instance.

And with the taste-curve. You don't neccecarily get more taste the longer you boil , but you get a different taste to the hops, some times it might be what you're after sometime not.

The graph shows when you get a maximum.. but it's off.

 

[rodwha]

You don't need a link for this..

For example. Aroma, why do you think people dryhop? And Dryhopping also contributes to flavor. The chart is just way off.

Easy. There are ranges for what works. It’s not unusual to use an oz of some hop at 5 mins to add aroma. I’ve never seen anyone use so little in a dry hop. And that aroma addition is done within that 5 mins and not over days or a week.

So I’d need to see why it’s said to be debunked.

 

[rodwha]

You don't need to heavily dry hop them either. Timing is everything. You will get more arome from a hop the less you boil it, since you dont boil it away. Different types of hops yields a different result, and what result you're after comes down to what you want.. But you do not maximize aroma if you add a hop at 10minutes. No matter what hop, as the chart shows when you get to 0 minutes of boil.

According to that chart there should be no benefits of dryhopping, as you can see the curves go down to zero (10). So everybode who are doing knockout/WP/Dryhops are wrong?

That chart is old school and is not related to modern techniques at all.

According to the chart adding at 0 mins would merely be dunking the hops and tossing them. No one who adds them at 0 mins this and so it provides aroma. The chart doesn’t register for dry hopping, first wort hopping, or whirlpools. It’s strickly the time they are boiled clearly.

 

[rodwha]

I don't argue with that. some hops taste better, or more correct according to a reference if you boil them for x amount of time. But you can't say that you get more aroma the longer you boil them, for instance.

And with the taste-curve. You don't neccecarily get more taste the longer you boil , but you get a different taste to the hops, some times it might be what you're after sometime not.

The graph shows when you get a maximum.. but it's off.

As I stated I’m not so sure it’s accurate for every hop variety.

Seems a comparison is in order.

 

[Smellyglove]

As I stated I’m not so sure it’s accurate for every hop variety.

Seems a comparison is in order.

It's an old chart. I saw it published before styles like NEIPA became popular, even before dryhopping for two days and not a week was the norm..

Any hop which is boiled will boil away aromas. You are correct that the chart states only boil time, but as I said it's an old chart. It says for maximum aroma you should boil for 7.5 five minutes.. That's 7.5 minutes where you boil away the aroma, and while you get more aroma than boiling for 60 minutes, you can still get more aroma from the exact same amount of hops, by not boiling them for 7.5 minutes.

 

[Smellyglove]

For heavily dry hoped beers yes but for subtle hoppy beers I’d say that chart is correct..

I’ve gone back to 20 and 5 minute hop additions lately and have been enjoying the results even in very hoppy “hazy” beers.

Even for subtle hopped beers, if you want maximum and more "fresh" aroma, don't boil them. Just use less hops elsewhere. The chart states what gives a "maximum"..

 

[rodwha]

Even for subtle hopped beers, if you want maximum and more "fresh" aroma, don't boil them. Just use less hops elsewhere. The chart states what gives a "maximum"..

That may well be true, but hops put in the boil might well follow the chart. Again, aimed at hops that are boiled and what you get.

Although I’m considering testing simple beers to see the differences concerning base malts it seems testing the chart might be in order as well.

 

[Moose_MI]

 

[Smellyglove]

View attachment 602434

Well then go on and lecture newcomers that to get the most aroma of a hop in beer is to boil it for exactly 7.5 minutes.

 

[Moose_MI]

Well then go on and lecture newcomers that to get the most aroma of a hop in beer is to boil it for exactly 7.5 minutes.

 

[rodwha]

If there’s something that shows that (in the boil alone) that another time frame produces the best aroma of flavor I’d love to see it.

I’d even love to see anything that shows an oz of X hop used in a dry hop vs in the boil is better and/or lasts longer.

I don’t stand by the chart claiming I believe it true. But it’s the only thing I’ve seen where it speaks definitively. I do believe it’s quite possible that it depends on the hop variety, but SWMBO found a blog using this chart and it said it was not dependent on the varietal. Maybe the more typical 5 and 15 min additions are actually better than a 7 and 21. Until I see something definitive I’ll continue to use the chart.

 

[lump42]

If there’s something that shows that (in the boil alone) that another time frame produces the best aroma of flavor I’d love to see it.

I’d even love to see anything that shows an oz of X hop used in a dry hop vs in the boil is better and/or lasts longer.

I don’t stand by the chart claiming I believe it true. But it’s the only thing I’ve seen where it speaks definitively. I do believe it’s quite possible that it depends on the hop variety, but SWMBO found a blog using this chart and it said it was not dependent on the varietal. Maybe the more typical 5 and 15 min additions are actually better than a 7 and 21. Until I see something definitive I’ll continue to use the chart.

Zymurgy March/ April 2016 "Modern Day IPAs" by Mitch Steele pg.22-29

This article is even a bit dated when compared with the current trends of NEIPA and Brut IPA, but it does cover the differences between 'old-school' and 'new-school' hop techniques. Example: Hop bursting - hop additions going at the end of boil, at flameout, or in whirlpool to increase hop aroma and decrease bitterness.

 

[lump42]

Also, check out For the Love of Hops by Stan Hieronymus. Chapters 7 & 8 discuss "Hops in the Brewhouse" and "Dry Hopping"

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

This chart was shown to me long ago. It may not be accurate for every hop type. I’ve never seen anything else give what appears to be a definitive efficiency.

Because of it I’ve changed my bittering time to 70 min, my flavor time to 21 and the aroma to 7 unless I only have one late hop addition, which is often dropped at 14 mins.

update (about an hour after my initial post): this new topic at https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=32784 may be worth a look.

Lots of great beer has been made, is being made, and will continue to be made with hop additions @60, @20, @5, @0. The same can be said for beers with just first wort and hop steep additions.

I first saw that chart five years ago with no source or supporting evidence. It's easy and reasonable to believe it: it matches nicely with the idea of bittering hops @60, flavor hops @20, aroma hops @ 5. And people brew great beer using this hop schedule. Aside: "Perception and Reality in Beer Flavor with Randy Mosher – BeerSmith Podcast #182" is worth a listen.

Over time, what has made me skeptical about the chart is the steepness of the aroma and flavor curves. I tend to view homebrewing as "cooking": so interactions of ingredients in the kettle do not "start" or "stop" at specific temperatures or at specific times. And these interactions will likely occur before and after the boil. For me, any model that doesn't take this into account is suspect.

Some recent science / "citizen science" for to consider.

"The IBU is a LIE! Kind of....." (https://www.experimentalbrew.com/experiments/writeups/ibu-lie-kind): wort chill time impacts bitterness:

Here’s the big takeaway – remember the foreshadowing a few pages back about process – we think the “undershoot” is due to today’s more rapid chilling procedures than were common during the formula’s development.

boil temperature impacts bitterness. It's mentioned here

At least one brewer was also playing with a new electric rig that had a lower “boil” temp that possibly compounded the miss [vs classic IBU estimating techniques].

Also, Stan Hieronymus's Hop Queries newsletter has an article on boiling at high altitude (lower temperatures) which 'confirms' that bitterness (IBUs) is extracted from hops at temperatures below 212* F / 100* C.

For hop flavors/aromas, a couple of "citizen science" test batches should offer evidence that temperature has as much of an impact as time.

Basic Brewing Radio has performed a number of hop tasting shows over the last year. The base recipe is simple and intended to produce six bottles of beer using a one gallon carboy. IIRC, the recipe is

• 3 quarts water,
  
• 1 pound light DME
• bring the wort to a boil, turn off heat
  
• add 1 oz hops
• let the kettle sit (off the heat) for 15 or 20 minutes
• chill rapidly

For me, this will result in a beer that's similar to a beer with hops added @60 / @20, and @5.

The "November 1, 2018 - IBUs vs Wort Gravity and Hop Stand Temps" of Basic Brewing Radio is worth a listen for those who want to try to estimate IBUs with just hop steep additions.

Let's take the BBR base recipe, and adjust it to do just a hop steep:

• 3 quarts water,
  
• 1 pound light DME
• bring the wort to a boil, turn off heat, chill to 180* F
  
• add 1 oz hops
• let the kettle sit (at 180* F) for 15 or 20 minutes
• chill rapidly

For variations, try this at a lower temperature (170, ...) and for longer times.

For me, this is enough science / 'citizen science' to suggest that modeling (or estimating) hop bitterness/flavors/aromas requires time and temperature.

Models (and estimates) for homebrewing don't have to be correct to be useful. But when older models conflict with newer information, it can be fun to set those older models aside. And regardless of the validity of the diagram, great beer will continue to be made with recipes that use 1) hop additions @60, @25, @5 or 2) just first wort and whirlpool hop additions, or 3) many timing variations in between.

 

[applescrap]

There should be no surprise that hops steeping at temps above 180 impart ibus. Brulosophy did a test and iirc they did one steeped addition vs traditional hop schedule. Iirc they tasted the same and a lab confirmed similar ibus.

 

[applescrap]

After relooking that is exactly what they did. One got hops at 60, 10 and 2min. The other, the full charge for a 23 min steep. Heres the lab data.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

So I’d need to see why it’s said to be debunked.

There's really nothing here to "debunk". The chart represents a classic/traditional/"old school" technique for using hops.

The ideas in the chart can be seen in homebrewing books / magazines from 20 to 30 years ago. There are articles in Zymurgy Magazine (2001, 2002) and probably BYO (but I don't have back issues). The book "Homebrewers Companion" (1993, p 102) talks about using aromatic hops at 20 minutes and "just before the end of the boil" to avoid boiling off volatile aromatic oils. A "google image search" turned up a variation of the chart (around 2011) which moved the flavor / aroma curves to the left about 5 minutes - similar to the chart mentioned in this topic: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/middle-boil-times-for-hops.593449/

As for the chart, given the use of a 'Comic Serif' font, I could see this chart as a slide in a homebrew club presentation from the early 2000s.

For current resources on hops (either late in the boil or at 'sub-boil' temperatures), https://alchemyoverlord.wordpress.com/ appears to be another good source of information. Also http://scottjanish.com/examination-...s-for-achieving-maximum-hop-aroma-and-flavor/

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

After relooking that is exactly what they did. One got hops at 60, 10 and 2min. The other, the full charge for a 23 min steep. Heres the lab data. View attachment 602507

With "sub-boil" hop additions, it really helps to know the duration and the temperature of the "hop stand"/ "hop steep" / "whirlpool addition" / ...

In the case if the Brulosophy Experiment (I think you are referring to http://brulosophy.com/2018/02/05/kettle-hop-vs-hop-stand-exbeeriment-results/), they did this

Once the hop stand wort was done boiling, I turned the heat off, tossed in the entire hop charge and stirred intermittently over the next 23 minutes, the time BeerSmith predicted would lead to a similar IBU as the kettle hop batch.

and in the discussion section, mentioned this:

On one hand, it makes sense these beers were as similar as they were since isomerization of alpha acids is known to occur at 175°F/79°C and the hops for the hop stand batch were tossed in immediately at flameout– even after the 23 minute stand, the wort was still over 190°F/88°C.

This approach (published in 2018) to hopping seems to confirm "The IBU is a LIE! Kind of....." (published mid 2017) (https://www.experimentalbrew.com/experiments/writeups/ibu-lie-kind) as well as what people who did "Australian No-Chill" were talking about when that was first getting started (in the early 2010s?).

This approach is also used by Basic Brewing Radio for their hop tasting series. IIRC: make a six-pack sample with a 1 gallon carboy, 1 lb dme, 3 qt water, 1 oz hops, bring the DME to a boil, remove the heat, add the hops, let sit for 15-20 minutes, then chill. Yes, this makes a good beer.

It will be noted that people who look for large amounts of hop flavor / aroma have a different process: Chill the wort to 170 (or 180, 160, 130, ...), add the hops, hold the temperature for some amount of time (20, 30, 40 minutes). Very different results from what was done in that Exbeeriment.

 

[applescrap]

I find this all very interesting and it seems we continue to learn so much about hops and how they flavor beer, despite known measurable differences.

In the study above despite temperatures it is peculiar that a beer hopped throughout the boil was similar in taste to a 23 minute stand. And even measured the same. It makes me wonder if amount is the real factor.

Curious enough they tested this two other times. You should check those out. Different testers too. Greg Foster found no significant result from 190ish and 170 ish in the blind triangle. And even more interesting Matt Del Fiacco found no significance in direct flame out hops and 120 degree whirlpool. According to that study he and the tatsers could not tell apart these two beers. He even knew what to look for, and iirc correctly the aromas were the same.

So there you have it 3 tests. Hops added throughout boil and a 23 minute 190ish steep. Hops added at 192 and 172. And hops added at fo vs 120 whirlpool. This is why I have to just use recipes. I could go nuts playing with all these factors.

 

[applescrap]

As I read through those, and apologies for a little ot here. I found hop stand vs dry hop test. 3oz of galaxy at 160ish vs 3 day dry hop. 31 of the 41 tasters could tell. A massive significance. Also 22 to 3 preferred the dry hopped beer. When asked which was the hop standed beer only 9 got it right. The fresh and inviting hop aroma and flavor was in actual fact the dry hopped beer. I know I said I run crazy playing with hops, but this makes we want to brew a pale ale/ipa whatever with 3 or 4 oz dry hopped.