Another newbie with a question

[netman]

I've had more sour beers, than good ones, and now, again, I have 2, 5 gallon batches of sour beer.

I bought a brand new carboy for my last batch, and sanitized it. Now, 13 days later, I have sour beer sitting in it. (I tasted it when measuring 1,022 gravity). And the airlock is still a little active
Gravity before fermenting was 1,055.

I can't belive its sour. After the boil, all that's needed to be sanitized is the carboy, airlock and syphon for transporting the cooled wort. (wortchiller boilled for 15 minutes)

My question is, how do you guys clean your carboys? Do you use a brush, or just chemicals? I've started to consider using sand together with chemicals, but not sure. It might scratch the inside glass surface.

Thanks in advance.

 

[RFBrewer]

What are you using to clean the carboy?

 

[ong]

Can you describe your sanitization process? Also, what yeast are you using, and what temp are you fermenting at?

 

[netman]

For sanitizing I use Chemipro oxi. It's an non-rinse sanitizer. I mix it with water (4grams per liter of water) and then soak, or if soaking isn't possible, then I spray it on. Required contact time is 2-5minutes and I always leave it soaked longer, and I don't rinse it with water, as it's non-rinse.

I sanitize my glass carboy, airlock, and auto-syphon. Oh, yeah, the tip of my thermometer too, since I measure the temperature dropping during cooling with my wortchiller, that has been boilling in the wort, the last 15 minutes of the boil.

I use Safbrew s-33. This time I made a starter. I boiled half a liter of water together with a tablespoon of white sugar. Cooled it in a water bath, and poored into a sanitized bottle. Added the yeast at 20°C and put on an airlock. All was sanitized previously with Chemipro-oxi. This starter sat for 24 hours.

After pitching, my fermenter sits in my bathroom, a foot above the floor. I cover it with a T-shirt to hide the wort from ultraviolet rays. The temperature in my bathroom is about 19°C (66°F)

Thanks for helping
netman
------------------

 

[netman]

Of course I can't stop thinking about my problem, and I think I've come up with an answer.

The problem might be in my auto-syphon and the hose attached to it. I had an 8 month pause and it could be, that the inside of the hose (tube) and the inside of the auto-syphon had bacteria in them. All you can really do is pass liquids through them to clean them, without scrubbing of any kind.

Next time I'll let everything soak in a solution of Sodium hydroxide, then rinse, then I'll soak in PWB which is a cleaner and sanitizer, and then rinse, and then soak in my non rinse sanitizer. That should make everything 100% bacteria free.

Maybe you'll find it interesting to know I ordered 32oz of Star San which will cost me 65,50$ to get to Europe. So, I'm trying my best to become a homebrewer.

Thanks for the posts, and for reading.

Happy brewing
netman
----------------

 

[tripplehazzard]

Of course I can't stop thinking about my problem, and I think I've come up with an answer.

The problem might be in my auto-syphon and the hose attached to it. I had an 8 month pause and it could be, that the inside of the hose (tube) and the inside of the auto-syphon had bacteria in them. All you can really do is pass liquids through them to clean them, without scrubbing of any kind.

Next time I'll let everything soak in a solution of Sodium hydroxide, then rinse, then I'll soak in PWB which is a cleaner and sanitizer, and then rinse, and then soak in my non rinse sanitizer. That should make everything 100% bacteria free.

Maybe you'll find it interesting to know I ordered 32oz of Star San which will cost me 65,50$ to get to Europe. So, I'm trying my best to become a homebrewer.

Thanks for the posts, and for reading.

Happy brewing
netman
----------------

I would suggest using nothing but star san. Clean with pbw . Get all visible dirt gone. Then sanitize with star san. It only needs like a 30 second contact time. That should fix your problem. Hope this helps. Btw. What kind of yeast are you pitching?. Get some dme for your starters. Never use white sugar. Your ratios are off. . Half cup dme to 2cup water I believe. You want to get that yeast awake to eat different sugars. Not sucrose. . . Get rid of the auto syphon! If its questionable dont use it. I use about 4foot of clear vynal tube and a turkey baster. Cheap and easy. Also I would say the bathroom is probably the absolute worst place fir fermentation to occur. Think about it . Lol. Move it anywhere else.. except next to today's trash. .. hope this helps some. Cheers and good luck happy brewing!

 

[ong]

I would add that you really shouldn't do a starter with dry yeast. And yes, if you're doing a starter, use malt, not sugar. I used to get very sour/tart brews from fermenting with certain yeasts at too high a temperature.

Have you tried anything like US-05 for a really neutral yeast profile? I've never used S-33 but my understanding is that it is a pretty high-profile yeast.


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[oakbarn]

PBW is a cleaner, not a sanitizer. I agree with throwing away the auto siphon. I replace all my cheap hoses on a regular basis. I let my carboys soak overnight with PBW the rinse and use IDAPHOR before I put them away. I rinse with Star San just before use. If I have any issue with sour beer, everything plastic or rubber is gone! Replacing a tube or a rubber cork is a lot cheaper than throwing out 5 gals. I use a new Airlock each time as well filled with vodka.

We have had only two failures in 8 years brewing about a barrel a month.

Remember the 3 rules of brewing:
1. Clean then Sanitize
2. Clean then Sanitize
3. Clean then Sanitize

 

[ong]

PBW is a cleaner, not a sanitizer. I agree with throwing away the auto siphon. I replace all my cheap hoses on a regular basis. I let my carboys soak overnight with PBW the rinse and use IDAPHOR before I put them away. I rinse with Star San just before use. If I have any issue with sour beer, everything plastic or rubber is gone! Replacing a tube or a rubber cork is a lot cheaper than throwing out 5 gals. I use a new Airlock each time as well filled with vodka.

We have had only two failures in 8 years brewing about a barrel a month.

Remember the 3 rules of brewing:
1. Clean then Sanitize
2. Clean then Sanitize
3. Clean then Sanitize

A new airlock every time?!? I can understand replacing hoses from time to time, but throwing out a bunch of plastic every batch seems kinda wasteful. Surely the 3-piece airlocks aren't that hard to clean?



Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[netman]

Thanks for all your help. It might seem stupid to the older brewers, but listening to "clean and sanitize" over and over again, actually helps us freshmen.

Next time I brew, I will buy new hoses and a new airlock. Why not, it is cheaper than tossing a batch of beer.

And using DME instead of white sugar, is also dead on. It's just something a beginner would do, I guess.

thanks, again for all your help. At least I've got my confidence back

Cheers

 

[netman]

Here's an update on my "sour" brewing experience.

I got starsan from USA and I got a new hose to transport my wort to my glass carboy fermenter.

What did I get? I got sour beer AGAIN.

As far as I know, you can't infect your beer as long as the wort is boiling. So everthing up until that point should be O.K.
I put my wortchiller into the boil 45 minuts befor I needed it, so that it would be 100% sanitized.

I cleaned my carboy, airlock and new hose with a 30% solution of NaOH, which is a real bad-ass cleaner that has to be rinsed real good.

Then I cleaned my carboy, airlock and new hose with VWP which is a cleaner and a sanitizer that is used to sanitize beer stuff. And then rinsed real good, cause it has to be rinsed off.

Then I sanitized my carboy, airlock and new hose (and scissors and yeast package) with a solution of starsan and didn't rinse anything any more. There were bubbles of starsan still in the carboy.

Of course I did all this while the wort was boilling.

I tossed my sock of hops out of the wort, and started cooling with my wortchiller. When the temperature was cold enough I syphoned the wort into my glass carboy, added yeast and attached the airlock.

How on earth is it still possible that I get sour beer? I mean IT GETS SOUR WITHIN 10 - 14 DAYS IN THE FERMENTER. I don't even get a chance to keg my beer.

The only thing I can think of, is my hop pellets. I have had them vacuum packed in small packages for about 4 years, and I got them from a friend who had them for who knows how long before he gave them to me.
But this doesn't explane why the beer in my fermenter gets more and more sour every next day.
after three weeks in the fermenter it's like vineger. I'm pretty sure its an infection.

Is it possible they are guilty for my problems? I haven't been able to find any information on the net about what happens if you use old hops, as it looks like everyone uses fresh hops only a year or two old.

My next step will be to buy some fresh hops, and I am also going to start brewing smaller batches, so I don't have such a great loss every time I have to throw away my beer.
Because of a smaller batch, I will also cool the wort in a water-bath, instead of using my wortchiller.

I've made beer for about 60 times. Only 20 times all-grain. I NEVER get sour beer from extract brewing, even though I boil only a quarter of the water together with the extract, and I use unboilled water straight from the tap
to top off the rest in my fermenter.

From the 20 times I have mad all-grain, I've only made about 7 good batches in the beginning. All the later batches have been sour.

Any Ideas?????

 

[ncbrewer]

I think I had a wild yeast infection with my first all-grain batch, after about 40 extract batches without infection - similar to your problem. Assuming there is a tie-in with the all-grain process, the only reason that seems likely is contamination from grain dust. I bleached all the equipment and replaced tubing - and taking extra precautions to prevent contamination from grain dust. The test batch is still in the fermenter - no results yet.

 

[netman]

I just posted my problem a few minuts ago, but I'm feeling a lot better now about my sour beer problems.

I just read this thread:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/think-you-ruined-your-beer-set-your-fears-aside-74520/

where it said NEVER DUMP YOUR BEER.

After reading, that beer almost never goes bad, all you have to do is wait it out. I went into my cellar, cause I remembered that I had about 10 bottles of old SOUR beer, I've been to lazy to throw out.

I grabbed one of them, took it up to my kitchen, and popped open the rusty cap. And I mean rusty. It was covered all over with rust.

The beer inside is super clear, with absolutely no CO2 bubbles, as the cap obviously didn't seal tight enough to hold in the CO2 for a whole year (maybe 2?)

I can still taste a little sour taste, but that's all right. The beer is drinkable, and that's all that matters to me. Even without the CO2 it's drinkable.

I'm one of the happiest brewers, cause now I know that all I have to do with a sour batch is bottle it and put it in a corner for a year.

NO MORE THROWING AWAY SOUR BEER.

Of course, I'd still be happy if I could make normal tasting beer. (and lots of it)

CHEERS

 

[ong]

Are all your brews done with S-33 yeast? I've never used it, but it does not have a great reputation. It sounds like you're being pretty careful about sanitation -- I wonder if you're not tasting something in the yeast or the fermentation you don't like. Are you fermenting below 70 degrees, or is it warmer than that?

 

[netman]

I allways used S-33 yeast, but because of your advice in this thread, I used US-05 in my last batch.

I put this last batch in two glass carboys, and fermented one in my kitchen at around 73°F and put the other on the top step of my cellar where the temperature was about 66°F.

After 14 days of fermenting (when I was about to go kegging) I found that they both got sour, exactly the same. It was just a bit sour, but sour never the less.

I just left everything where it was in the fermenter another 2 weeks, and as always, it got even more sour. This time so sour my face turned in to the face of Silvester stalone playing Rocky, calling out "ADRIAN"

It was as sour as vinegar.

Thanks for any help.

 

[ong]

So the really ancient hops are definitely a problem... I would replace those with fresh hops immediately, if at all possible. But I don't see how they would be souring your beer if they're added during the boil.

Is there a pellicle on top of the beer in your fermenters? A cloudy skin? It sure sounds like acetobacter or lactobacillus, if it's THAT sour.

This is an all-grain batch from malted barley? Are there other ingredients? Are you adding a lot of sugar to the wort?

 

[podz]

Boiling your wort chiller for 45 minutes? Is it copper? Copper is reactive with both chlorine and flouride, both if which are likely present in your water.

 

[netman]

It's all grain with no sugar added.

I only boiled the wortchiller 45 minutes this last batch, just in case 15 minutes I usualy boil my wortchiller wasn't enough.

I'm simply running out of ideas, so I'm doing things I never do normaly.

Next time I'll use a waterbath and not use the wortchiller at all. And I'll use fresh hops.

I'll post the results, when I have anything new.

Thank for your help, guys.

 

[bobsantos]

It helps if you use vinegar and baking soda. You don't have to use much water because it will keep the cleaning material to work at its best.

 

[ong]

Are you seeing any kind of a pellicle on top of these very sour beers? I can't imagine you'd have an acetobacter infection that bad without 1) a visible pellicle and 2) a lot of exposure to oxygen. A lactobacillus infection should have it's own visible pellicle.

 

[Alan_P]

It's all grain with no sugar added.

I only boiled the wortchiller 45 minutes this last batch, just in case 15 minutes I usualy boil my wortchiller wasn't enough.

I'm simply running out of ideas, so I'm doing things I never do normaly.

Next time I'll use a waterbath and not use the wortchiller at all. And I'll use fresh hops.

I'll post the results, when I have anything new.

Thank for your help, guys.

Hey, no need to buy Star San from US and pay tons of € for shipment... you can find it here as well - check ebay.co.uk but Chemipro does the job for me. I use either a bleach solution rinsed with boiled water or Chemipro and had no problems so far, except for one batch.
I'm a newbie as well - if you throw an eye at my post count you'll get the idea - but cannot the sourness be pre-existent to boil? Are you also dry-hopping with those 4 year old ones?

If you're close to Belgium, consider this as your new supply shop: brouwland.com

Cheers

 

[SmokeyMcBong]

if you cant figure it out, try a little experiment. make a small batch of wort, cool as regular and transfer to your sanitized carboy. then steal a trick from the wine makers and use campden tabs (one per gallon {or metabysulfite}) crushed up. the campden will kill everything in the wort. allow at least 24 hours for the campden to gas off then dry pitch your yeast. this should end up with only clean wort and your yeast of choice in your carboy. once pitched, don't open the stopper on the carboy for 2.5-3 weeks and don't slosh around the fermenting beer (don't allow it to splash up and touch the stopper or bottom of the air lock {even though you sanitized with purpose!}) If you still end up with sour beer, the problem has to be with your yeast of choice or maybe (unlikely) a deep scratch in your carboy which is harboring some nasties. good luck bro, we're all pulling for you.

 

[Cyclman]

I saw you rinsed some of your items, the rinse water can be infected if you didn't boil it.

I would do one batch: boil the cleaned immersion chiller; use the carboy, cleaned thoroughly and sanitized with starsan; use a new airlock, soaked in Starsan, with a stopper, new, boiled. Pour directly from the kettle to the carboy with a metal funnel, boiled. Pitch dry yeast directly into beer. Use StarSan in the airlock.

I can't fathom the beer would sour.

One other thought, is it possible the grain is wet at some point prior to using it? It could be sour grain- taste some. I would also taste the hops, and of course the water.

It's a pain troubleshooting, but don't give up!

 

[netman]

No, I can't really say I've seen any kind of pellicle on any of my beers.

after 14 days there's hardly anything floating on top, exept a small cluster of bubbles.

My malted barley is fresh from the store. Or at least it was when I last brewed.

I still have to find some fresh hops, and then I'll make another batch. And I'll post here, what'll happen, nobody knows.

I won't use the wortchiller at all. and buying a new airlock won't kill me either.

cheers.