Another nearly extinct beer worthy of note

[dmtaylor]

Medic MD said the oil from sweet gale is poisonous, so that's out for now, even though it's used for digestive problems.

Everything is poisonous in sufficient amounts. I've used sweet gale (a.k.a., myrica gale, bog myrtle) in several gruits in large amounts and never died or got sick from it at all. It's a traditional gruit ingredient. Got mine from wildweeds.com years ago. Guess I risked the credit card thing, and again, didn't die or get trouble from it. But I'm pretty sure they also sell it in some homebrew shops.

 

[unionrdr]

The recipe use 2g of sweet gale. I nearly lol'd when one site said not to take borage internally. Sheez, what BS is propagated on the net these days. I'm also concerned with pennyroyal & some of the others in the original recipe I listed at the beginning of the thread? I'll take all the learned advice I can get with these gruits. No room for error there!

 

[Hoppy2bmerry]

Wow, you've certainly done a lot of research for this, I'm impressed. Using beans in fermentation is interesting and prompted me to search for beans of Germany... I've seen fava and a type of red bean were popular, but not truly sure of the historical placement of these beans. Red beans are higher in starch and protein and a bit lower in fiber than northern and fava. I wonder if the bean protein would add to the head of this strong beer.

 

[unionrdr]

Well, I'm having trouble finding out exactly what " Northern European beans" are? I took a guess at great northern? I'll give it another search...

 

[dmtaylor]

I did a bumload of gruit research a few years ago. Sweet gale has a very mild bittering power and mild flavor, and in my experience can be used just like hops, like 28 g in the boil of your typical 5 gallons or whatever. Hasn't killed me yet.

Pennyroyal comes to mind as one with hallucinogenic properties, if memory serves. That one, I'd be okay using a gram or maybe two, but I'd be very careful with it.

 

[unionrdr]

Here's an article on beans in Europe I found. Quite scientific, but interesting with regard to hybridization back then; http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20490446
And the wiki on the Phaseolus Vulgaris mentioned in the first link. The common string bean, in this wiki link. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phaseolus_vulgaris Could this be the Northern European bean mentioned? It & many others came from America back when the Spaniards were exploring over this way? The Northern European Diet also mentions green beans, so this could be the most likely? They also dried & used the beans inside the pods as well. I think this could just be it?
And the wiki on the common bean in general; https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bean If Phaseolus came to them from America, where did they get the particular species used in 139X? The recipe goes back at least that far. But in the time of Columbus, where this recipe comes to us from, Phaseolus Vulgaris would be the most likely.

 

[unionrdr]

3 of my gruit herbs just came in this afternoon. 1/4lb each...almost makes yer eyes red just lookin' at'em, huh? Seriously though, from left to right is Spearmint, blessed thistle & elderflowers. gotta order some grains next, & get the rest of the spices & gruits.

 

[Braumeise]

Elderflowers are just awesome!

My grandma used to take us collecting the flowers and later the Berries and she made Lemonade and cough sirup and Breakfast Jelly and other really amazing things from it.

Over the last years it became a very popular "hip" drink to mix Elderflowers with Prosecco, Cava or Champagne....

actually the only beer I ever liked from Magic hat Brewery was a Elderberry Wit beer.

I am so excited to see what you will make from this since I really want to get into ancient and long forgotten recipes once I have my perfect Lager brewed!

Good Luck!

 

[unionrdr]

Thanks! These " ancient beers" were mostly ales, as what we know as lager beer hadn't come along just yet. Gruits coming before they knew what they were missing with hops. I supposed that they looked at hops as just another possible gruit?
And pennyroyal having hallucinogenic qualities, I suspect it contains some form of narcotic? It was used in " fest beers" like this mumme' to keep people going during these festivals that would go on for days, according to some medieval writings I've read. *YIKES! Read this about pennyroyal! http://www.drugs.com/npc/pennyroyal.html It's toxic to the liver & neurotoxin as well. No way! I was wondering when they dry the Phaseolus Vulgaris, or string bean, what then would be the name of the dried beans stripped from the now dry pods? Also, in my recipes links under my avatar is a recipe for the rare German dampfbier.
Just ordered the grains, DME's & 2-WY1275's. Midwest has a site-wide 15% off sale code "HIGHKRAUSEN" that saved me $7.90. With shipping @ $10.58,the savings cut my shipping cost to $2.68! Definitely not going to be a cheap beer with all the gruits, etc with an OG estimated @ 1.076 by BS2.

 

[Braumeise]

And pennyroyal having hallucinogenic qualities, I suspect it contains some form of narcotic? .

You find the strangest sources
for us old world witches Pennyroyal is a herb to spice foods, to brew tea or you can buy the seeds in a pharmacy use them for all kinds of digestive issues.

Higher doses may cause an abortion or regulate your menstruation (a herb/medicine for women obviously) that is one of the main reasons why it is a "witch-herb" and still known to those who keep the ancient healing traditions alive.

We do not consider it dangerous or narcotic or no more "narcotic" than common spearmint.

Instead of harming the liver it is said to lower Cholesterol and support the liver.

here is a link in english that is close to what german official pharmacy (!) sites state.

https://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/druginfo/natural/480.html

As far as I know and I only know it in relation to the revival of Gose, before Hildegard von Bingen (ancient german herb healing nun and quite famous) discovered the antimicrobial effect of hops, hops where not used to bitter beer. In fact Hops were not allowed in Beer-Brewing and brewers were punished for using them (until aprox. 1100). Hops also kill the lacto-microbial organisms you need for the Gose. Although there was something called Gruit-rights which allowed the Dukes and the church to have the monopoly on trade and usage of Gruit. Using hops to bitter the beer and to make it last longer was a way to surpass the strict Monopoly and therefor Hops, usage of Hops and hoped beer was banned by many Dukes and the church.

btw. use of sugar in brewing is still not allowed in Germany (now you know why one of my first questions was, if I really have to use priming sugar or if I may use the unfermented wort from that brew to carbonate my beer)

If I ever get my perfect Lager right, this will be my next project: revive the "healing women herb and spice knowledge of beer bittering)

You will probably predict that I will kill myself if I put all the stuff into my beer that was used in ancient recipes

 

[unionrdr]

Your link backs up what I found in the one I posted. http://www.drugs.com/npc/pennyroyal.html The stuff, depending on how it's used & how much, is a liver & neurotoxin. I now suspect this is what gives it the hallucinogenic qualities? Other herbs & plants were cheaper subs for spices & such, besides particular medicinal effects. Looking at the original recipe I posted, I've been working on adding the herbs that're safe to use internally, & the spices some taste like. I grew Borage at one point, & the whole plant is edible, so that one site that said to use it externally only is wrong. The fresh version at any rate. It tastes like cucumber. Germans love the seeds in bread I've read. I ordered the grains for my version yesterday. Speaking of my version, here's the recipe I have so far;
**********Mel's Mumme'**********************************************
*Six gallon recipe volume, pb/pm biab*
The mash****
1lb- Shelled green string beans (northern European beans?)
11.2ozs- Crystal 10L
1lb- Malted oats
1lb, 11.2ozs- Pale wheat malt, Weyermann
3lbs, 8 ozs- Pale malt, Weyermann
4ozs- Chocolate malt, Crisp
*Beans should be simmered about 20 minutes before adding to the mash.
*************************************************************
3lbs- Plain Bavarian wheat DME
3lbs- plain light DME, Breiss
2 packets- Thames Valley Ale yeast, WY1275
**After four days in primary, either rack to secondary, or add sanitized herbs in sanitized bag in primary 7 days;
2 ozs- Elder flowers (all herbs dried)
2g- Sweet Gale
4g- Cardamom
7g- Black Tea
7g- Borage
7g- Cloves
7g- Marjoram
7g- Spearmint
7g- Thyme
15g- Blessed Thistle
************************
To priming solution, add 2ozs Spruce extract. I thought this'd be easier than using spruce branches as a wort filter? I haven't made up my mind on Vco2 yet. The original recipe doesn't give priming sugar amount?
Mash so far will be 7.15lbs in 2.25 gallons of water @ 1.25 quarts per pound of grist, including the beans. Temp I think I'll set at 155F for the 2 hours listed in the original. Batch sparge 10 minutes @ 168F in 2 gallons water. Boil wort 1 hour, as usual. If using 2ozs spruce tips, add them @ 10 minutes left in the boil. Otherwise, 2ozs spruce extract in priming solution. Chill wort down to 75F, strain into clean/sanitized fermenter. Top off with chilled water ( I use local spring water through the process) that's well chilled in the fridge a day or two before brew day to 6 gallons. My Cooper's Micro Brew FV will be great for this. Ferment 4 days, then either rack to secondary, or add to primary, all the herbs listed in clean, sanitized bag. I'm going to sanitize a glass shot glass for weight this time. Keeping the bag under the surface of the beer should help prevent infections this time? Leave to ferment at least 7 days, or until secondary fermentation is done.
*****The Numbers*****************
Beersmith 2.2 still doesn't account for bittering with herbs, so that quantity is unknown.
Based on British Strong Ale style in BS2
Est OG- 1.076
Est FG- 1.018
Color- 18.1 SRM
Est ABV- 7.8%
BS2 gives Vco2 level of 2.3...

 

[unionrdr]

Well, I ordered the grains, DME's & yeast packets on 11/7, but they e-mailed me & said the yeast wouldn't come in until yesterday sometime. I guess it did, because it looks to have shipped finally. Supposed to get here between today & Monday. I have to by/find some of the spices & plants yet. So just collecting/researching the rest will be a week or two yet. Just thought y'all should know...

 

[unionrdr]

Dang. I thought I found another ingredient at the store yesterday. Got coriander seed instead of cardamom. Oops. Gotta go out with a list next time! I have nearly everything needed to brew it. I wanna get it in the fermenter before Christmas. My grain/ dry brewing goods dunage is nearly full now! Those tall, square organic herb bottles are worth saving! I'll get to posting the rest of the gruit stuff soon!

 

[IslandLizard]

Dang. I thought I found another ingredient at the store yesterday. Got coriander seed instead of cardamom. Oops. Gotta go out with a list next time! I have nearly everything needed to brew it. i wanna get it in the fermenter before Christmas. My grain/ dry brewing goods dunage is nearly full now! Those tall, square organic herb bottles are worth saving! I'll get to posting the rest of the gruit stuff soon!

Look for an Indian (spice) store. They'll have cardamom. A little goes a long way. The little green pods are the best, then whole seeds. Don't bother with the powder.

 

[unionrdr]

I was thinking whole seeds for the cardamom? Whole spices & the like for the rest that I don't have yet. Maybe Heinen's, as it's an upscale grocery chain around here? I've seen Indian restaurants way up Lorain Rd near 130th in Cleveland, maybe a shop near there, or? With the borage & all the other odd plants, I got dried 4oz bags. Geez, 4ozs is a lot for those, as in the pics i posted a while ago. This is gonna open up a whole new aspect of brewing for me.

 

[IslandLizard]

Let me clarify, cardamom in the pods remains the freshest. They also sell small packages of just the seeds (taken out of the pods), but they'll lose flavor and aroma much quicker over time. The Indian spice stores typically sell more of it and have faster turnover, but it could still be a year old, easily.

The jars in the grocery stores are all old and stale, regardless of brand and "expiration date." More to the point, they expired long before they were even shipped.

If you boil the cardamom for say an hour, like in an Indian stew, you could leave them in the pods. Then at the end you could fish them out and crush them (in a mortar or with a bottle) before adding them back to release the top notes. But you'll retain more of the delicate aroma and flavor when you add them at the very end. For that, crush them coarsely (or even finely) right before adding them, after flameout when the wort has cooled to around 190F. Just let steep for 10-15 minutes, then chill to pitching temps.

Instead, or in addition, you could also add the cardamon to your secondary, or primary after most fermentation is done. Less aroma will be stripped out that way. As with most spices and herbs they change character depending on how they are treated and used.

Again, that spice, when fresh, is assertive, so go easy on it. You can always add more if need be.

 

[unionrdr]

Thanks for the info. So cardamom pods being better, I guess I'll look for those instead. And the recipe adds the gruits to primary 4 days after fermentation starts.

 

[dmtaylor]

Cardamom is great stuff, I love it. I use the little green seeds, crushed, in my gruit. It gives a sort of A1 steak sauce kind of flavor. That's how my father described my first gruit, actually... said "this tastes like A1 and pickle juice!". He was right. And I loved it. Love the gruit ales.

 

[unionrdr]

It'll be interesting to see how it reacts/blends with all the other herbs, plants & spices! Being my first gruit, this should prove interesting, after all the research I did to make a safe, enjoyable ale.

 

[unionrdr]

I just posted part one of some videos I'll be doing covering this beer. In this one, I discuss the recipe & go over the ingredients. I also list the recipe in the video...

 

[unionrdr]

I'll be doing part 2 when I get the rest of the gruit herbs, most likely. Then on to trying to film the brew day, etc...with an SD card that only holds some 8:30 of video & stereo sound files. I may even do a video on what I found out in my research on this gruit ale?

 

[unionrdr]

Well, I finally got the remaining ingredients located & ordered! Here's part two of the video series on this one;

 

[unionrdr]

Most of the remaining gruit herbs came in while I was out yesterday. Still waiting on the spruce essence & sweet gale.

Might be finally brewing this one next weekend.

 

[unionrdr]

I've been thinking about the spruce essence. The original recipe uses 2ozs of fir branches in the last 10 minutes of the boil. I'm trying to make up my mind how much essence to use in the priming solution to get the same effect as 2ozs of branches/tips in the boil?

 

[dmtaylor]

I've been thinking about the spruce essence. The original recipe uses 2ozs of fir branches in the last 10 minutes of the boil. I'm trying to make up my mind how much essence to use in the priming solution to get the same effect as 2ozs of branches/tips in the boil?

My advice with gruit ales is always to start with less than you think you should. I figure 1 teaspoon is probably about right for 6 gallons. Therefore start with 1/3 to 1/2 teaspoon and if not able to taste it at all then add another 1/3 to 1/2 teaspoon. Mix and repeat as necessary. I would certainly not use any more than 2 teaspoons which is probably the point of being too much.

 

[unionrdr]

The real question is, how much " essence" is extracted from 2oz of tips/branches? I thought no more than 1oz essence, but it may be less?

 

[IslandLizard]

Most of the remaining gruit herbs came in while I was out yesterday. Still waiting on the spruce essence & sweet gale.

Might be finally brewing this one next weekend.

That's a lot of great spices and herbs!
I hope you like cooking...

Marjoram is by far my favorite cooking herb, great in soups and chicken, followed by rosemary. I also use fresh cilantro a lot, $.99 for a large bunch, can't beat it. Dried cilantro is nothing like the fresh kind, but can be used for tea nicely. Same for mint or pretty much any herb.

Anise (aniseed) is great in a mug of hot milk with some sugar during the cold winter months. Reminds me of ice skating on the canals in Amsterdam.

Some people like Cardamom in their coffee or tea. It's reminiscent of cinnamon but much more perfumy and less earthy.

 

[dmtaylor]

The real question is, how much " essence" is extracted from 2oz of tips/branches? I thought no more than 1oz essence, but it may be less?

Much less. Plants are comprised of about 80% water. Then there is the portion of cellulose that has no flavor at all. You are searching for the oily parts. That is probably less than 5%. So by weight, it could be around 0.1 oz for your recipe, but that is a total swag. A whole oz would be way way too much.

 

[unionrdr]

I am beginning to think you're right about that, DM. one or two tenths tops is starting to sound about right. that old recipe does seem to seek a balance between the 13 different herbs, spices, etc. And wait till I get the last of the gruits in. I'm going to do a short video showing when to use what pretty soon. I'm hoping to brew it this weekend. And We do enjoy cooking, so that's ok. got a small jar of coriander by mistake too.
By the way, should the cardamom, anise seed be crushed for greatest effect? Seems like they should be?

 

[dmtaylor]

By the way, should the cardamom, anise seed be crushed for greatest effect? Seems like they should be?

Definitely. Not powder but just crack them well (use a kitchen mallet or the back of a heavy pot).