Another control panel

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Addiktion

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So I have a new idea to add on to my RIMS panel. I want to add a new 3 PID control box to add a timer, boil PID, and a HLT PID. I have a parts breakdown from auberins and wanted to get some feedback or if anyone has any other ideas instead of the items I’ve selected or if I need to add things. Last control box I built I was trigger happy wound up buying things I didn’t need and have to return them. So all feedback will be appreciated or if anyone else has gone down this road.

77B904CF-5799-484F-BCAD-02BD73ED719E.jpg


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I should add I wanted a power switch, pump switch, and a switch to activate both heating elements
 
The 16mm switches are quite small so make sure that's what you want. I would go 22mm for easier control and to match your buzzer and lights. FWIW I prefer a selector type switch. Have fun with your project!!
 
Yeah I just figured I could tie lights and switches together. Any thoughts on BCS? I was thinking PIDs but if I’m going to build something is there a huge price difference? Anyone got a BCS system that can supply feedback? Ebrew supply has good deals on base kits but I know next to nothing on BCS or wiring it up.
 
Yeah I just figured I could tie lights and switches together. Any thoughts on BCS? I was thinking PIDs but if I’m going to build something is there a huge price difference? Anyone got a BCS system that can supply feedback? Ebrew supply has good deals on base kits but I know next to nothing on BCS or wiring it up.

I've got a BCS-460, and while I like it, I'm kicking myself for not going with the BCS-462 instead. The 460 does not have enough I/O for my liking and it's too limiting. It takes a little getting used to the interface, but it's pretty easy once you get the hang of the process. Lots of functionality and ability to change things. It's a little tricky syncing it up with a recipe, but it can be done.

That being said, I'm going to switch to Brucontrol + an Arduinio in the future. The overall cost looks similar to a BCS-462, but the functionality looks much better. The guy who created it is @Brundog, and is very active here.
 
Thank you for the mention, @Wizard_of_Frobozz. I am certainly biased, but I honestly think anyone building a panel should evaluate the benefits (and risks) of building with an automation-centric solution like CraftBeerPi, BCS, BrewTroller, or BruControl. The first benefit is that these systems create "virtual" control panels, replacing fixed hardware (LED's, switches, PIDs, timers, etc.) with software controls on a monitor. In terms of cost, it would be tough to compare because many brewers usually have some of the equipment needed for the interface (monitor, laptop, RPi, tablet, PC, etc.). If they didn't, the dedicated hardware might be less expensive. If they did however, I would bet the automation solution is cheaper. Look at the OP's post - there is ~$175 in dedicated hardware alone - replacing that with a BCS 460 is a dead-even cost exchange, and the builder picks up digital I/O, and remote interface, automated mash steps, and much more).

Now, with respect to the build, dedicated hardware requires the panel front be planned, drilled/punched, and wired. And the control box needs be mounted where the brewer can access it - typically on a well. Automation solutions requires only the "backplane" wiring. For example, my control box is under my table - out of the way and I never access it. So more time is needed setting up and executing the dedicated hardware build, but once it is done, the work is done. For automated solutions, there will inevitably be some learning curve along with setting up the software and dialing it in the way you want. So I would bet the initial build/setup time commitment is higher with the automated solutions. But you get a digital control panel that is how you want it - not some clone which is locked down.

Now where the real benefit to the automated breweries is the flexibility. Dedicated hardware does one thing, which is fine if that system is never going to change or grow. But what happens when you want to add features or functions to your build? Case in point this OP. For the automated solution, this gets really easy - just add the necessary backplane components (contactors, etc.), then set up the controls in software. In fact, I recommend any builder builds their box with expansion possibilities in mind. For example, rather than drilling holes for three temp probes, drill holes for 6 or 8. Add I/O holes for lots of expansion. I did this when I built my panel, not even knowing what I might expand into. I put in 16 I/O connectors, and as time has progressed, when I add something else (e.g. just added a second proportional valve), I just add the wires to the terminals and solder them to the connectors which are already in place. This requires no unplugging the box, drilling, painting, part relocation, etc. This is a huge benefit to the brewer who would like to automate more of their processes as time goes on.

Which I think is really the big consideration to be made. Do you see yourself adding more automation in the future? For example automatic timers, alarms, pump control, mash steps? Next would be electric valves to switch fluid flow without manual intervention. And beyond like vessel volume measurement, flow metering, etc. Heck, I am currently working on adding pH and SG measurement of the mash on the fly.

I know automation gets a bad rap, with comments like "I want to brew my beer, not have a machine do it", but I can tell you automation benefits the brewer in many ways - repeatibility being the most important of these. The second is freeing time and attention. Automation gives the brewer time to focus on the science and not be anchored down waiting for every step. Unfortunately, the human element introduces errors and new variables - so brewing the beer the way you want it, consistently from batch to batch, and changing only the variable you want becomes very feasible. For example, direct heating the mash with a propane burner will brew beer, but from brew to brew, you can't guarantee the temperature of the mash was maintained throughout, so while you intended to brew a dry beer, you get a big bodied one instead. Hence the evolution to electric brewing and temp control with PID's, etc. That was the first major step towards increased automation, and these solutions represent the next phase.

Anyway, I hope you don't mind the long post... just thought I would add some flavor for the OP and anyone contemplating their next build who is considering their control system.
 
Thank you for the mention, @Wizard_of_Frobozz. I am certainly biased, but I honestly think anyone building a panel should evaluate the benefits (and risks) of building with an automation-centric solution like CraftBeerPi, BCS, BrewTroller, or BruControl. The first benefit is that these systems create "virtual" control panels, replacing fixed hardware (LED's, switches, PIDs, timers, etc.) with software controls on a monitor. In terms of cost, it would be tough to compare because many brewers usually have some of the equipment needed for the interface (monitor, laptop, RPi, tablet, PC, etc.). If they didn't, the dedicated hardware might be less expensive. If they did however, I would bet the automation solution is cheaper. Look at the OP's post - there is ~$175 in dedicated hardware alone - replacing that with a BCS 460 is a dead-even cost exchange, and the builder picks up digital I/O, and remote interface, automated mash steps, and much more).

Now, with respect to the build, dedicated hardware requires the panel front be planned, drilled/punched, and wired. And the control box needs be mounted where the brewer can access it - typically on a well. Automation solutions requires only the "backplane" wiring. For example, my control box is under my table - out of the way and I never access it. So more time is needed setting up and executing the dedicated hardware build, but once it is done, the work is done. For automated solutions, there will inevitably be some learning curve along with setting up the software and dialing it in the way you want. So I would bet the initial build/setup time commitment is higher with the automated solutions. But you get a digital control panel that is how you want it - not some clone which is locked down.

Now where the real benefit to the automated breweries is the flexibility. Dedicated hardware does one thing, which is fine if that system is never going to change or grow. But what happens when you want to add features or functions to your build? Case in point this OP. For the automated solution, this gets really easy - just add the necessary backplane components (contactors, etc.), then set up the controls in software. In fact, I recommend any builder builds their box with expansion possibilities in mind. For example, rather than drilling holes for three temp probes, drill holes for 6 or 8. Add I/O holes for lots of expansion. I did this when I built my panel, not even knowing what I might expand into. I put in 16 I/O connectors, and as time has progressed, when I add something else (e.g. just added a second proportional valve), I just add the wires to the terminals and solder them to the connectors which are already in place. This requires no unplugging the box, drilling, painting, part relocation, etc. This is a huge benefit to the brewer who would like to automate more of their processes as time goes on.

Which I think is really the big consideration to be made. Do you see yourself adding more automation in the future? For example automatic timers, alarms, pump control, mash steps? Next would be electric valves to switch fluid flow without manual intervention. And beyond like vessel volume measurement, flow metering, etc. Heck, I am currently working on adding pH and SG measurement of the mash on the fly.

I know automation gets a bad rap, with comments like "I want to brew my beer, not have a machine do it", but I can tell you automation benefits the brewer in many ways - repeatibility being the most important of these. The second is freeing time and attention. Automation gives the brewer time to focus on the science and not be anchored down waiting for every step. Unfortunately, the human element introduces errors and new variables - so brewing the beer the way you want it, consistently from batch to batch, and changing only the variable you want becomes very feasible. For example, direct heating the mash with a propane burner will brew beer, but from brew to brew, you can't guarantee the temperature of the mash was maintained throughout, so while you intended to brew a dry beer, you get a big bodied one instead. Hence the evolution to electric brewing and temp control with PID's, etc. That was the first major step towards increased automation, and these solutions represent the next phase.

Anyway, I hope you don't mind the long post... just thought I would add some flavor for the OP and anyone contemplating their next build who is considering their control system.

You're welcome, Brundog! Considering all the advice and help you've given me (and the resot of this community for that matter) an unsolicited plug for BruControl is the least I can do!

I'll back you up on the flexibility that automation brings. I have only a few switches and indicators in standard weatherproof electrical boxes; the main panel only has a couple of holes in it for the wires. Whenever I change something, I only have to alter the exterior boxes around and pull a few wires. Less expensive that way. I've had no issues using the BCS + a tablet to control things, and generally don't bother with the one switch I have installed.

I will say that I have had some connectivity issues with the BCS mid-brewing session where it dropped off the network for some reason; that's a pain when it happens but it's pretty rare. Could be because I'm using a wireless bridge to communicate with it vs. ethernet cable. In all, I've really like the BCS but the network connectivity is really the only thing I've had issues with getting to work well. Using a static IP address works the best, but it does mean you have to be careful with your router and reserve that IP address for the BCS.

You did forget to mention another aspect of building in automation: It's fun! I've always said that my real hobby is building my system; brewing is just a means to test my latest upgrades! ;)
 
You did forget to mention another aspect of building in automation: It's fun! I've always said that my real hobby is building my system; brewing is just a means to test my latest upgrades! ;)

You are absolutely correct on this... it is fun. Unfortunately I am never satisfied, and keep thinking about stuff to add!
 
Agree with both of you guys. I'm never stopping adding gear or changing my equipment around. I want to go fully controlled and I know this won't happen overnight but I do plan on another spike kettle and conical fermenter. Maybe adding my fridge to track fermentation temps. I'm always expanding and dreaming of what I can do next. I have 3 spare tablets laying around and maybe I can put on to good use. Thanks for the replies. I'll check out your set up Brundog. I think I've clicked through your pictures before and was fascinated by your build. I'll read your write up. Seems like this may be the way to go.
 
as someone who started with pids and a budget build 3 pid control panel I can say I'm very glad I have upgraded to brucontrol. theres just so much more you can do with it. I'm running my fermentation temp control for my 3 conicals, including heaters , chilling valves and the chiller temp itself as well as the whole brewery all from the same recycled pc and touchscreen.. as as my system evolves its just way easier to reconfigure things as I see fit.

You can shave half of the cost off that panel above btw if you source al lot of the same stuff on ebay and amazon.. for example these rtds are way less expensive but from the same supplier as aubers.. http://www.ebay.com/itm/RTD-Pt100-T...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

same with this SSR...
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mager-40A-S...epid=0&hash=item5b2516545a:g:MWoAAOSwo0JWJzxJ
 
Not sure if you're still interested in the fixed hardware design we discussed in our PM exchange, or have decided to go BruControl, BCS, etc. In any case, here's the version of the design that has the interlock to prevent power up unless the pump and elements are off. In order to do the interlocking, multiple pole switches are required, which unfortunately rules out the cute little ring light switches. Also, with two elements on a 30A service, you need a three position (on-off-on) switch to prevent enabling both elements at once. I've used a key switch for main power, but that could be replaced with a lighted push button switch (which would eliminate the separate main power light.)

Addiktion-2.jpg

Brew on :mug:
 
Thanks Doug. That’s the route I’ve decided to go with. I think for what I need and my level of brewing I don’t need BCS. I’m going to stay with the PIDs. I’ll update he thread when I start the build.
 
So four years later and I’m under construction. Thanks t everyone who helped me along the way. Here’s the new panel being built.
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Glad to see you are making progress. Since I provided you with the panel schematic posted above, I have made an improvement to the "safe start" interlock circuitry. Basically, it leaves less of the wiring in the panel energized before main power is turned on. You might want to consider modifying your wiring to implement the change. The mods are pretty simple, and don't require any new components, just a change to how the main power switch is wired. The schematic below is for a different design than yours, but you should be able to understand the change by comparing the far upper left sections of your schematic with the one below.

DSPR300 1-Pump 1-Element 240V rev-2.PNG


Brew on :mug:
 
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