Anglo-American Pale Ale recipe critique

[jfr1111]

I'm looking at perfecting 2-3 house recipes for the next year to dial in my system and process.

The first beer will be a saison which I have tried three somewhat different grainbills and hopping regimens with Wy3711, all of which are promising, and I want a pale ale and maybe a stout/porter or some kind.

I want the pale ale to be a mix between English Pale Ale and American Pale Ale. Before I took a two year hiatus, I was in love with british bitters and almost exclusively brewed Special Bitters, but they don't lend temselves to bottle priming and the lowish gravities. Plus, I have drank a lot of American stuff in the meantime, and I found I liked the hop characteristics of those as well.

So, I want to formulate a middle of the road recipe: english malt backbone and ester profile with some american hops. I know there is precedent, both in America and the UK, but I want to steer away from the citrus bomb hops and go for a dank, piny and maybe a tad rougher hop profile which I feel will go better with the maltier and more estery palate. The thing is, I don't have a good grasp of how American hop schedules work for a pale ale. I've pretty much migrated to first wort hopping for the bittering and one minute addition and chilling down quickly for finishing for all my beers. Will this work in an american pale ale or do I need to spread out my additions more ?


House pale ale

5 gallon batch

Grainbill:

95 % Maris Otter
4% Carastan (40L)
1% Chocolate Malt for color

Mash @ 151F for 60 minutes.

OG: 1.052

Hops:
0.50oz Norther Brewer (First Wort) 20IBU
1oz Chinook 1 min 10 IBU
1oz Summit 1 min 13 IBU

Yeast:
Wy1308 London Ale III

BTW: I've came around on Summit hops after trying them out in a DIIPA at my local. No onion, but they were plenty earthy, cat-pissy, spicy and dank. Didn't get much tangerine from them though.

 

[Bramstoker17]

For a good American hop profile, I really like to load up on late hop additions. I usually throw a couple ounces in at 5 minutes, then a bunch more at flame out.

Also, you may want to look into doing a hop stand. Basically, you steep the flame out hops in the hot wort for a period of time before you bring it down to yeast pitching temps. If you do the stand right after flame out and don't cool the wort at all first, you'll still get some bitterness from the hops in addition to flavor and aroma. If you bring it to 170ish first, you won't get any bitterness, just flavor/aroma. So it depends if you want any additional IBUs out of your late hops.

Also, if you're going for dank and piney, maybe Simcoe would be a good fit. It has some pine, plus a bit of fruit as well, and I think it would add a bit of complexity to what you've got while keeping in line with what you're trying to do. Looks like you've got a good idea for a beer though, good luck!

 

[JKaranka]

Some extravagant British hops too? I'd go for Chinook, Simcoe & Bramling Cross as late additions.

 

[jfr1111]

So you suggest that I add another ounce of Chinook and another ounce of Summit at 5 minutes and keep the flameout addition the same ? I worry that even at flameout, since I'm loading with high AA that the beer will become too bitter/hoppy. I'm after something balanced with the malty backbone after all.

I do very much like the suggestion of a hop stand if it can keep the bittering low, altough I've toyed with doing them before and found that I didn't get satisfactory results, but that was with british hops (fuggles, EKG, etc.) which are a lot more subtle, and might not be as fresh.

Something like this ?

0.50oz Norther Brewer (First Wort) 20IBU
1oz Chinook 5 min 10 IBU
1oz Summit 5 min 13 IBU
1oz Chinook @ 170F
1oz Summit @ 170F

I also have a lot of cascade, centennials and willamette on hand.

Simcoe would be a nice choice, and I've liked it in many beers I've had, but it is was too pricey at my usual shop at almost 3$ an ounce, altough I could plan to do a bulk buy by the pound somewhere down the line. I've heard colombus is also good for a change of pace and some dank character.

 

[jfr1111]

Some extravagant British hops too? I'd go for Chinook, Simcoe & Bramling Cross as late additions.

Simcoe I like a lot. Brambling Cross I've never cared for in all the beers I've made with it. It gave an astringent fruity character that I didn't like, like drinking cut down grape fruit juice.

 

[Bramstoker17]

So you suggest that I add another ounce of Chinook and another ounce of Summit at 5 minutes and keep the flameout addition the same ? I worry that even at flameout, since I'm loading with high AA that the beer will become too bitter/hoppy. I'm after something balanced with the malty backbone after all.

I do very much like the suggestion of a hop stand if it can keep the bittering low, altough I've toyed with doing them before and found that I didn't get satisfactory results, but that was with british hops (fuggles, EKG, etc.) which are a lot more subtle, and might not be as fresh.

Something like this ?

0.50oz Norther Brewer (First Wort) 20IBU
1oz Chinook 5 min 10 IBU
1oz Summit 5 min 13 IBU
1oz Chinook @ 170F
1oz Summit @ 170F

I also have a lot of cascade, centennials and willamette on hand.

Simcoe would be a nice choice, and I've liked it in many beers I've had, but it is was too pricey at my usual shop at almost 3$ an ounce, altough I could plan to do a bulk buy by the pound somewhere down the line. I've heard colombus is also good for a change of pace and some dank character.

That hop schedule looks great to me. I'm a big fan of Columbus, when used late it does add some dank character to the beer for sure, and a bit of citrus too.

 

[badlee]

I am a big fan of NB as FWH,like that.
For an Englishness,try a 20 minute addition of your Chinook/Summit mix

 

[hottpeper13]

I have been doing the FWH on myIPA and APA and am having a difficult time finding out how many IBU's it contributes. where did you get your 20 IBU calculation from?
Also when I omitted the 60 min bittering addition the beers seemed a little dull or sweet even though they came down to 1.012.
I do like your hop bill. I might add those cascade at FWH also.

 

[badlee]

I just use the 60minute as FWH; plug it in to whatever calculator you use as @60.
You will get a very big hop flavour for @20,but not so much aroma.
I tend to hop:FWH@60/@20/@15/@10/@5/@2

 

[jfr1111]

I have been doing the FWH on myIPA and APA and am having a difficult time finding out how many IBU's it contributes. where did you get your 20 IBU calculation from?
Also when I omitted the 60 min bittering addition the beers seemed a little dull or sweet even though they came down to 1.012.
I do like your hop bill. I might add those cascade at FWH also.

The 20IBU comes for Beersmith (Rager, 60 minute FWH), but to me, FWH lends a different character than boiling for 60 minutes: the bitterness is, for lack of better word, smoother and less sharp, which is nice since my water accentuates bitterness over the malt.

There are different opinions on how to calculate the perceived IBU contribution from FWH. Some say to treat it as a 20 or 30 minute addition. I personnaly do not care to be that precise and just rely on Beersmith, but will go on the higher range of the IBU/OG ratio for all my bitter beers that I FWH in order to compensate, and it has served me well.

I do like the idea of using Cascade somewhere in the process, maybe as a modest dry-hop or on a rebrew ?

 

[jfr1111]

That hop schedule looks great to me. I'm a big fan of Columbus, when used late it does add some dank character to the beer for sure, and a bit of citrus too.

Thanks for the feedback. I was thinking about maybe toning down both additions to .75 oz of each hop, but decided against it and locked my recipe in Beersmith (this is to prevent me further diddling with it, which is a chronic affliction of mine). I think the malt backbone will be sufficient to give me a balanced beer that will still be on the hoppy side, especially with the 1318, which tends to end slightly sweet, and the hop bill is simple enough to be fine tuned for future brews.

I will probably end up doing two or three batches back to back with different hopping regimens and the same grain bill/yeast, just to see what I like and what works best. I know the grainbill is solid for having brewed at least 10-15 batches that were very similar, if not identical to it, albeit at a lower OG.

 

[jfr1111]

UPDATE: I brewed the beer Saturday.

After more research about hop stands and talking to some people "in the know" about the particular beer I was basing mine after, I tweaked the hop schedule and went with an ounce of Summit, Chinook and Willamette at flamout for a 30 minute near boiling hop stand.

I took a gravity reading tonight and it's amazing how much hop flavour and aroma I get: no onion, but plenty of dank, tangerine, earth and maybe some spice on the end. No pine though. It nailed almost perfectly what I was going for with the hop character, altough the jury is still out on the bitterness level (I calculated the 30 minute hop stand as a 10 minute addition after reading people's experience, and I guess it's more like a 5 minute addition on my system).

The yeast seems to have dropped clear @ 1.016, even with rousing, which is a bit high for the style, but the beer could pass as american amber ale with the color and smooth character imparted by the yeast.

I can't wait to taste this carbed up. This is a definite rebrew, probably for this weekend if I can make it fit my schedule.

 

[Joker_on_Jack]

I have a similar strategy to you and have since developed a pale that is a bit of a hybrid: english malts (i use golden promise primarily) and I use WLP001 for the yeast and lock it in for one of my standard brews. I do single hop and change variety every time however. Play around with one hop at a time and see what you like. And while your doing a FWH and a stand mine as well throw in a hop burst schedule and some dry hops.

 

[jfr1111]

I have a similar strategy to you and have since developed a pale that is a bit of a hybrid: english malts (i use golden promise primarily) and I use WLP001 for the yeast and lock it in for one of my standard brews. I do single hop and change variety every time however. Play around with one hop at a time and see what you like. And while your doing a FWH and a stand mine as well throw in a hop burst schedule and some dry hops.

I like the idea of single hop beers and will probably do some in the future (I have done many, many in the past, with English and continental hop varieties), altough the hop character isn't what will be probably tweaked on the rebrew, but rather the mash temperature and maybe the yeast, to get a few more points off the FG.

I like 001/1056/US-05 for certain styles, but it's a bit too plain jane for me in a pale ale.

 

[jfr1111]

UPDATE: Tried my first bottle of this today (it was a half full bottle). It's obviously not fully carbed up yet, but my first foray into the world of whirlpool/steeping hops is a definitive success.

Pours a rich ruby colour. Clear. Pours a one inch egg white head that lasts until the end of the glass, leaving lace all the way down. Aroma is dank, herbal and fruity (tangerine, oranges, no grapefruit), with caramel and lady fingers. It has a definitive fall/winter aroma. Taste is more of the same, altough the hops take a backseat to the rich caramel and soft malt character. Finishes sweet with a gentle lingering bitterness. Mouthfeel is medium to medium full.

This is more of an amber ale than a standard pale ale. I wouldn't drink this to quench my thirst on a hot summer day, but for watching football next to a fire during fall, this hits the spot.

 

[jfr1111]

UPDATE: Tried a second bottle, fully carbed up.

Still pours clear with visible carbonation and a very tight creamy head which dissipates to a foam cap that lasts for the whole pour. Visible lacing. Aroma is much more piney, spicy, dank and robust, with the crystal malt playing a suportive role. Much less soft and fruity. The Chinook has really taken the front seat. Taste is much more dominated by the malt than in the aroma with a firm final from the chocolate malt and Chinook hops which is out of place. The hops dominate the aftertaste and it has a long complex finish.

Again, this is not what I would call a refreshing beer and the Chinook and chocolate malt are distracting together. I would see it work well in a big dry brown ale, but for a beer like this, it's a bit too much. The chocolate worked in bitters with soft and floral hops, but the Chinook is too strong/powerful on its own.

I'm rebrewing it today, eliminating the chocolate malt, the chinook (which will be replaced by more summit hops) and adding some columbus to the finish to keep the dank profile. I might also carb lower.

 

[JKaranka]

I really think you should consider some strong British herbal / floral hops there. Maybe Pilgrim, Challenger or Admiral.