An affordable option to building an all electric system?

[P-J]

I am not so sure I agree with you on this. Everyday housewives turn on their electric stoves and microwaves with boiling fluid in them. They do not need to know the hows and whys of the device they are using. Why should brewing be any different. ...

That is exactly the reason for my wish that I was closer. It is not about running the system. It is all about the design and installation.

Let's not get into the differences between plumbers and "electricians".

wildwest is right on the money with his concerns. I am 100% in his corner.

 

[wildwest450]

I was at High Gravity last Sunday at an all-grain class. They demonstrate with that very system. It works like a dream. I am slowly converting over to electric and emulating their system as closely as I can.

And no one was electrocuted? Amazing. Thanks for the info, for the money I do like their setup. If only it had a little better temp control system. I have a question, they have Ranco controllers to control temp, in their pics it showed the probes just dangling in the kettles, but Ranco probes are not waterproof. Have any insight? Thanks!

 

[SweetSounds]

Ok, I've been researching this, and I've looked at the controllers on the sites mentioned so far with the same reservations already discussed here.

This will NOT be 1/2 arsed, or built with cheap crap. But it should be cheaper than the ones listed in this thread so far.

I'm talking full-blown PID control w/400 degree submersible RTD sensor, with disconnect
Dual SSRs w/heat sinks (Both legs switched)
30 amp 220v straight-blade input on 10' of SJOW 10-4 cable
30 amp 220v twist-lock output (L14-30)
NEMA enclosure

Because it sounds like fun, and there seems to be a need. It seems like 25 Amp is the sweet spot for SSRs, so this may change a little, but that's still 5500 Watts....

It'll be inspected and tested. If I like it, maybe I'll make more.

 

[lschiavo]

I want to go all electric, unfortunately I have zero electrical knowledge. I could build you a house but can't tell you why your lights turn on.

There isn't much in the way of all electric brewing that isn't super expensive. Until I found High Gravity. They have some neat systems that range from around $1400 to $2100 complete (minus the chiller and stand). I need the electric experts to have a look and tell me what you think.

http://www.highgravitybrew.com/productcart/pc/Build-Your-Own-Brewery-c269.htm

I called them they are legit.

Where do you plan to set up your system? What size power supply do you have available? Would you need to add a receptacle for the brewery? A new GFI protected receptacle will run you a few bucks that you will want to budget for. If you plan to use an existing receptacle, you should replace the circuit breaker with a GFI breaker.

I would be a little leary of the system you mentioned. As pointed out earlier, it is a four wire system with only a 3 prong main power plug. That is illegal and unsafe. Makes me wonder what else is wrong with it since they got the very first component wrong. I hope their disclaimer holds up in court for them

Also, some electric systems seem to have only capacity enough to fire either the HLT or BK but not both at the same time. A 30A circuit will not handle two 4500W elements. I often do multiple batches and need to heat strike water while boiling the first batch.

I built my electric HLT/HERMS and absolutly love it. My system is similar to the $749 one at brewmation. Their systems look well built to me. I would probably consider one if I was uncomfortable with building my own.

 

[DKershner]

There is a definite market for the non-engineer brewers, but it is not all that large. Brewers who are really into brewing, are not engineers or DIYers through and through, and are looking to move to electric is definitely a small market, but definitely exists. Which is why you only see a few people selling and they can charge a premium (or so some of you seem to think they do, I have no idea).

As for Sweetsounds, I would be interested in hearing about your product, and based on price, I may buy just for my HLT or something.

Just to be curious, what exactly would need to be repaired in these systems? Seems to me that a well-wired electrical system should last longer than the element or many other parts of the brewing system. I've never had to replace any propane plumbing on any of my brew setups...although I don't have pilot lights and automated burners either.

 

[ksarauer]

I am also interested in going electric but know nothing about electricity. I have been to Brewmation and like what they have, but it seems more expensive than what one can be put together for (I don't know, they may be quite reasonable).

I'm pretty sure I could assemble one, but making sure it was SAFE and not hazardous is my concern, I'd want to make sure it was grounded properly and such.

I'm currently only brewing extract, and in 5 gallon batches. Would someone be able to recommend a electrical system for me? And if I assembled it, posted pictures, would someone be able to tell me if it was safe or not?

 

[HogwashBrewster]

And no one was electrocuted? Amazing. Thanks for the info, for the money I do like their setup. If only it had a little better temp control system. I have a question, they have Ranco controllers to control temp, in their pics it showed the probes just dangling in the kettles, but Ranco probes are not waterproof. Have any insight? Thanks!

On his demo unit he had a heat well on the side of the MT but like you saw online the sensor dangles (alligator clipped to the thermo probe) in the HLT.
Ranco actually sells a heat well...$22 I think, but it is attached to a stopper. Not sure if Weld B Gone makes one large enough for the Ranco sensor. Here is a link to making your own submersible sensor....https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/diy-submersible-temperature-probe-26400/...who knows..maybe a little epoxy on the Ranco is all you need. Ask Dave at High Gravity if he's had any problems from the submerged probes.

 

[wildwest450]

Where do you plan to set up your system? What size power supply do you have available? Would you need to add a receptacle for the brewery? A new GFI protected receptacle will run you a few bucks that you will want to budget for. If you plan to use an existing receptacle, you should replace the circuit breaker with a GFI breaker.

I would be a little leary of the system you mentioned. As pointed out earlier, it is a four wire system with only a 3 prong main power plug. That is illegal and unsafe.

My system will be in a dedicated brew shed (check my sig). I will have a 100 amp service at my disposal. I'm planning on having 2 30 amp 240v plugs. I e-mailed the company with everyones concerns about their setup and this was their reply-

"We recommend grounding the frame of your brewery to protect everything. The ground from a GFCI should be attached to the frame. We can build a 4-wire version of the EBC II if you prefer. We don't use a GFCI ourselves, it's not like a hot tub where you are sitting inside the thing. The potential risk is in the case of a heating element failure, which is extremely rare, and we recommend simply hitting the Off switch in this case."

If you would post up some pics of your setup.

 

[wildwest450]

On his demo unit he had a heat well on the side of the MT but like you saw online the sensor dangles (alligator clipped to the thermo probe) in the HLT.

Thanks for the info, that's a tad cheesy, but can be easily fixed.

 

[wildwest450]

What is everyone using to control their boil kettle element? A potentiometer, or some other device?

 

[gunner65]

"We recommend grounding the frame of your brewery to protect everything. The ground from a GFCI should be attached to the frame. We can build a 4-wire version of the EBC II if you prefer. We don't use a GFCI ourselves, it's not like a hot tub where you are sitting inside the thing. The potential risk is in the case of a heating element failure, which is extremely rare, and we recommend simply hitting the Off switch in this case."

Watch out for the fodder!

I think if you like the products you should buy them. Just understand that when you ask advice about off the shelf stuff in a DIY forum you will get all these responses telling you to build it yourself. Hey if I had the money I would still build this stuff myself cause I like the research and tinkering aspect. I hope you took no offense to me telling you to learn and build your own I just get excited about the geeky stuff.

 

[gunner65]

What is everyone using to control their boil kettle element? A potentiometer, or some other device?

I use an ssr fired by a pwm (pulse width modulator) from bakatronics $7.99

 

[Brewmoor]

Just to be curious, what exactly would need to be repaired in these systems? Seems to me that a well-wired electrical system should last longer than the element or many other parts of the brewing system. I've never had to replace any propane plumbing on any of my brew setups...although I don't have pilot lights and automated burners either.

Well I have only done three brews on my system when in the middle of the third the ssr failed on. I could not figure out why the PWM was giving the off signal and the element was still heating. I check everywhere for a short and then got out my meter and found that the SSR even when it was showing off. I was getting 120v on the leg. I had an extra so it was not a big deal. That is about the only thing besides the element that I would expect to break. Knowing how to troubleshoot that would be a plus, but also a good company will warranty against something like that.

 

[ksarauer]

I use an ssr fired by a pwm (pulse width modulator) from bakatronics $7.99

This may be a dumb question but I know nothing about a PWM. How difficult was it to keep a rolling boil? Do you reduce the power to the heating element or reduce the time the element is powered?

 

[Brewmoor]

You reduce the time it fires. Not the voltage. So 5 seconds on x seconds off depending on the position of the knob.

It works great. I would be pissed if I had to deal with little buttons on a PID for an hour.

 

[gunner65]

This may be a dumb question but I know nothing about a PWM. How difficult was it to keep a rolling boil? Do you reduce the power to the heating element or reduce the time the element is powered?

The pwm has a potentiometer (turn pot with knob). As you turn the knob up or down you increase/decrease the amount of time the ssr fires the element. I have just done a test run with water and I turned the pot full on until it reached a full boil then I just backed it off until I got the rolling boil I was after. It is really the same principal as a PID in manual mode but the PID gives you a percentage reading.

 

[wildwest450]

I use an ssr fired by a pwm (pulse width modulator) from bakatronics $7.99

Thanks!.......

 

[ksarauer]

Perfect, just what I'd like. Does anyone have schematics of how they are wired? I'm guessing it would it be similar to a PID and SSR?

 

[gunner65]

Perfect, just what I'd like. Does anyone have schematics of how they are wired? I'm guessing it would it be similar to a PID and SSR?

A quick search here will give you tons of info on PWM controlled kettles. The wiring is very simple there is an input 12 VDC (power in) and an output 12 VDC that goes to the SSR. It took me all of 15 minutes to solder the little kit that I bought from bakatronics.

 

[BigJoeBrews]

My .02,
If you are going to do something like this, I would put a sub-panel in your brew area. Sounds like alot, but its really not that hard(depending on how far away your home panel is). If you are going to get electricity out there adding a small sub-panel is very easy. They make a "Hot tub" panel (50 bucks)that would be perfect, 50A. GFCI is a must, you are on concrete that is poured on the ground. You should talk to a local electrician or consult NEC. Having the sub-panel nearby will save you from walking all the way back to your house panel if you trip a breaker and make any upgrades a snap!

As for the rigs you are looking at? I would personally look for something UL listed or UL certified. This will guarantee a fault will trip your breaker, not start a fire (and as far as I could see, you don't have any drywall in your shed-so there's no fireproofing).

The whole neutral and dryer plug thing could easily be solved with a samll 2:1 transformer built into the controller. Many ovens have a 220V 3W plug (no neutral), but have 110V lights and timers.

BTW, yes-I am an IBEW electrician!

 

[jfkriege]

I agree that a 50A sub panel is a good idea. They are also the cheapest way I found to get GFCI for my system.

I just finished up an electric build that was fairly simple. I had one controller, one temperature probe, a few switches and plugs, and two relays to switch power to the elements on and off using the temperature controller. The build was under a grand and works well.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/modular-electric-brewery-177852/

 

[GreenMonti]

This is probably one of many. A PWM circuit. Enjoy.

 

[wildwest450]

My .02,
If you are going to do something like this, I would put a sub-panel in your brew area. Sounds like alot, but its really not that hard(depending on how far away your home panel is).

Actually my 100 amp service will be 15 feet from my rig. And once again (for the fifth time) my old man is a licensed electrician.

 

[BigJoeBrews]

OK, sorry. I read that your dad was a licensed electrician, everytime. I also read in your first post you wanted the electric experts to take a look??? Maybe thats where we are all confused... Anyway, other homebrewers may be looking for answers in this forum-homebrewers who are not related to electricians.. We're just trying to help

 

[wildwest450]

OK, sorry. I read that your dad was a licensed electrician, everytime. I also read in your first post you wanted the electric experts to take a look??? Maybe thats where we are all confused... Anyway, other homebrewers may be looking for answers in this forum-homebrewers who are not related to electricians.. We're just trying to help

No worries, by the context of your post, I thought you didn't know I had acess to my own personal electrician.

 

[lschiavo]

My system will be in a dedicated brew shed (check my sig). I will have a 100 amp service at my disposal. I'm planning on having 2 30 amp 240v plugs. I e-mailed the company with everyones concerns about their setup and this was their reply-

"We recommend grounding the frame of your brewery to protect everything. The ground from a GFCI should be attached to the frame. We can build a 4-wire version of the EBC II if you prefer. We don't use a GFCI ourselves, it's not like a hot tub where you are sitting inside the thing. The potential risk is in the case of a heating element failure, which is extremely rare, and we recommend simply hitting the Off switch in this case."

If you would post up some pics of your setup.

Ok, I remember your build thread for your brew shed now. Sounds like you are all set with a 100A service in the shed.

In regard to the email response: I don't see an alternative to the 4-wire unless (as mentioned earlier) they are using a transformer which I doubt they are judging by the size of the enclosure. I would never recommend to not use a GFI. Although, I agree the risk potential is low, why take a chance? That said, I still have to wire in my spa panel after using the HLT for about 4 months without incident. I also am an electrician. Seems my electrical projects at home remain unfinished far longer than other things.

I will post some pics. I dont have anything now, but will take some this weekend. Have you asked your father if he would help you with a build? He may just enjoy it. I know I had fun with my build. I have some hand drawn schematics of my build I would be happy to share if you are interested.

 

[wildwest450]

Have you asked your father if he would help you with a build? He may just enjoy it. I know I had fun with my build. I have some hand drawn schematics of my build I would be happy to share if you are interested.

Certainly, he's all in on anything want to do. As soon as I told him about it he went home and started goggling stuff. He called me and asked me if I everheard of a site called HomebrewTalk.com. Any schematics you want to share are welcome. The more research I do, the easier I believe it will be to do myself.

 

[Budzu]

Hi wild, just wanted to let you know I live about 1.5 hours from you. I have built a system from scratch you can check out in my gallery. Also here.
Consider yourself invited to come down and check out the system and/or a brewday, if it might help you in some ideas or clarifications.

 

[dutch-brew]

Wildwest, the electric part of the electric brewery is really not that bad. I knew not much about electric myself, and educated myself. I started with Pol's Bling-thread, and that's what i used for my basis.. and am growing from there on. It really took alot of reading all the different threads and thinking about it, looking up the parts etc.

If I can do it, anyone can.. I dumb
You could too, especially if you have dad to help you with it..

Talking about my e-keggle, i love it. Never going to propane again!
Here's what i made, and damn proud of it

 

[Duster72]

If your dad's an electrician, you want to build this yourself. It is daunting, but you will figure it out. Once you get all the parts and see how they would you realize that it's actually pretty damn simple.

The biggest problem is that there isn't one thread that explains it all, and Pol's original thread/system has some problems and is too long to easily read. Oh, and everyone here argues about the best way to do everything and makes everything way too complicated. Just pick a system and build it. Get PIDs for your HLT and BK and you'll be in good shape. You don't need more than 5500W for 5 gallon batches. I would try to get something around 3000W for the HLT. Good luck.