amylase enzyme... A.k.a... beano

[StMarcos]

If adding alph/beta amylase dropped your FG, then you were not getting complete conversion in the mash, which is something to remedy. Perhaps the amylase enzyme also contained a-galactosidase (sp?). I've put some pure AG in a mash/ferment and it dropped to zero in a week. BTW, AG works best at lower pH and temp than alpha amylase, so you can add it to the ferment....

 

[JVD_X]

If adding alph/beta amylase dropped your FG, then you were not getting complete conversion in the mash, which is something to remedy. Perhaps the amylase enzyme also contained a-galactosidase (sp?). I've put some pure AG in a mash/ferment and it dropped to zero in a week. BTW, AG works best at lower pH and temp than alpha amylase, so you can add it to the ferment....

No... I agree. I have traced my issue to a clogged RIMS system that was causing the temp to drop into the low 140's (or even lower I suppose) and burn out my element.

My concern wasn't my process per se... issues will arise... the concern was "what do I do now?" Do I do nothing and end up with an overly sweet beer, use beano - which will dry out my beer causing the other problem, or do I use AE (after exhausting all other possibilities to get the ferment going).

 

[MacBruver]

From here: http://www.rxmed.com/b.main/b2.phar...raphs/CPS- (General Monographs- B)/BEANO.html

Beano enzyme is inactivated at high temperatures. It should be added to foods at a temperature of less than 54°C. If the food is too hot to eat, it is too hot for the enzyme.

If you want to stop the beano at a certain point... you could keep a close eye on hydrometer samples, and then heat the beer up above 130f. I highly doubt it would affect the flavor at all, as others have experimented with removing alcohol from beer at temps higher than that without too much detriment.

 

[gturner6ppc]

Geez Tex...

In 20 years I have never had a stuck fermentation. All of a sudden I have had 3 in a row, including one which is a kit wine.

I have tried rousing the yeast, warming the fermenter, used a 2 liter starter (in the beer of course), etc... to no avail. Now I am going to try AA in the hopes that maybe I didn't convert well. Which is funny cause I did an iodine test and everything seemed OK. One beer used wyeast, the other White Labs, and the wine used dry yeast with the kit.

Is it possible that your water company just swtiched from regular chlorination to using chloramine? The first warning many people get is when all their aquarium fish die.

I also once had a problem with high copper levels from a wort chiller I had forgotten about having had for a few years. After a small splurge of initial fermentation, subsequent pitches with Cooper's Ale Yeast and Wyeast did nothing. I might as well have been throwing the yeast into a bucket of Chlorox. When I poured out the batch in frustration the inside of the primary was stained green!

 

[JVD_X]

Is it possible that your water company just swtiched from regular chlorination to using chloramine? The first warning many people get is when all their aquarium fish die.

I also once had a problem with high copper levels from a wort chiller I had forgotten about having had for a few years. After a small splurge of initial fermentation, subsequent pitches with Cooper's Ale Yeast and Wyeast did nothing. I might as well have been throwing the yeast into a bucket of Chlorox. When I poured out the batch in frustration the inside of the primary was stained green!

No, we have been on chloramine for a long time now. I have done several batches since fixing my RIMS, while I prepare my HERMS, that have turned out great. I have also started doing iodine tests which is something I had never done before, just assuming that my conversion was done after an hour.

 

[bigin31]

Wait a minute, JVD. You want to use distilled water to "do it right" on the hydrometer calibration, but you want to use alpha amylase to get over a stuck fermentation?

If you are going to do it, do it right. Take better care of your yeast, pitch properly, repitch, or create a more fermentable wort in the first place.

If your yeast are stuck, simply adding more sugar to the mix does not always cure the problem and, if it does, results in a different beer than you designed in the first place.


TL

Alpha amylase is not a sugar. Its an enzyme.

 

[gturner6ppc]

No, we have been on chloramine for a long time now. I have done several batches since fixing my RIMS, while I prepare my HERMS, that have turned out great. I have also started doing iodine tests which is something I had never done before, just assuming that my conversion was done after an hour.

So it's not your water, your barley, or your yeast. Gotta be the hops!

Time to try sacrificing a chicken in a voodoo ceremony or perhaps singing incantations to Ninkasi.

Have you made any 'improvements' to your procedure over the last three batches?

 

[gturner6ppc]

Alpha amylase is not a sugar. Its an enzyme.

I think he meant that adding alpha-amylase would liberate more fermentable sugars from complex non-fermentable sugars and carbohydrates, so in effect it is releasing more sugar into the brew.

 

[JVD_X]

So it's not your water, your barley, or your yeast. Gotta be the hops!

Time to try sacrificing a chicken in a voodoo ceremony or perhaps singing incantations to Ninkasi.

Have you made any 'improvements' to your procedure over the last three batches?

no... it was my conversion temp... it was low.

 

[Bopper]

Thread from the dead!

I have a noobish question. It is my understanding that a mash works because the heat activates AE present in the grain and the AE converts starch to glucose, maltose, etc. How does AE work when added to the fermenter? Doesn't AE require heat to convert the unfermentables?

 

[MacBruver]

There is no enzyme activity after the mash is done. All of the conversion from starch to sugar happens during the mash. If you don't convert it all, you'll be left with starches.

During fermentation, the conversion is from sugars to alcohols and CO2, which is done by the yeast of course

 

[Bopper]

There is no enzyme activity after the mash is done. All of the conversion from starch to sugar happens during the mash. If you don't convert it all, you'll be left with starches.

During fermentation, the conversion is from sugars to alcohols and CO2, which is done by the yeast of course

This I understand.

Let me give an example to help clarify my question (I just read my original question and I don't think I was being clear): This weekend I mashed in too hot due to a faulty thermometer. The mash settled at about 165 degrees and stayed there for around 5 -10 minutes before I noticed and added cold water to bring the temp of the mash down. I expect that during this 5-10 minute time period I denatured some enzymes and, therefore, I am expecting that I have excess unconverted starch. I will not know how much starch until I check my FG. On the other hand, it could be just fine.

If I do infact have a high FG due to the bad conversion, I thought I read that I could add some amylase enzymes to the fermenter to help convert some of that excess starch to sugar for the yeast to consume. This doesn't make sense to me because I thought amylase enzymes need heat to convert starch to sugar. Is there something done chemically to the enzymes you buy at a LHBS to allow them to convert starch at fermenting temperatures? Am I just confused?

Thanks for the help!

 

[MacBruver]

Oh, duh. That makes more sense. The simple answer that is that Beano isn't amylase... it's actually alpha glactoidase, which is most active at 98F but will work below that.

That's the problem with it though. Since it's active at room temperature, if you put it in your beer... it will keep going until all the sugars are gone. You can stop it by basically pasteurizing the beer... check out the other link I posted above for some more info on that.

 

[Bopper]

Oh, duh. That makes more sense. The simple answer that is that Beano isn't amylase... it's actually alpha glactoidase, which is most active at 98F but will work below that.

That's the problem with it though. Since it's active at room temperature, if you put it in your beer... it will keep going until all the sugars are gone. You can stop it by basically pasteurizing the beer... check out the other link I posted above for some more info on that.

This is the reason why I don't want to use Beano. Although, I could use it then add camden/k-meta to stabilize when my gravity gets to where I want it.

The amylase enzyme I was referring to is this: http://www.austinhomebrew.com/product_info.php?products_id=447 It's actually amylase and not alpha glactoidase. How does this stuff work at room temp? I thought it requried heat. Am I wrong?

Is the mash temperature needed to break down starch chains to something that the amylase can process as opposed to the temperature activating the amylase? Maybe the amylase is active the whole time and my reasoning was false. If this is the case, the starch chains should already be broken down and adding more amalyze enzymes should convert the excess starch to sugar.

 

[david_42]

Amylase enzyme works best in the mash, but if it didn't work at lower temperatures, you'd be dead. Or maybe just thinner. It's the primary enzyme your body uses to breakdown starches. It works at fermentation temperatures, fast enough to be useful.

The key mash temperature is 149F for full gelatinization of barley starches. If we were willing to mash for 48 hours, we could do it at room temperature. And get sour beer every time.

The starches are ready and waiting.

 

[Bopper]

Cool. Thanks for the explanation!! Makes sense to me now.

 

[bkov]

ive read reports of AE added to secondary and it lowering the gravity

 

[Schlenkerla]

ive read reports of AE added to secondary and it lowering the gravity

This is true, I does it in the secondary at room temperature. It can drop the FG from 1.008 down to 1.000 or lower. I don't know how high you can start it out but if you have a bad conversion give it a try. Its better than dumping it out...

BTW - I have never used beano, I have always used brewing grade AE.

I have done so about 6-7 times and each beer has been dry, very clean and crisp. I did this almost all of last summer. It got to the point that other beers seem to have too much mouth feel. This seemed to be the case when I had a Belgian ale sitting out in the hot sun. As I stopped brewing the light beers, I got back into liking malty again.

 

[android]

i was doing the same thing as schlenkerla. i never got one below like 1.003 and that was with a low mash temp. in my experience, the AE won't eat ALL the sugars, it'll leave a few behind so you have a relatively normal gravity.

 

[DPDISXR4Ti]

The amylase enzyme I was referring to is this: http://www.austinhomebrew.com/product_info.php?products_id=447

Is this the same stuff as this?
http://www.eckraus.com/Page_1/ENZ210.html#

Kraus charges a lot more but suggests a smaller dosage

 

[Schlenkerla]

Thats probably close enough. It for wine and brewing. Go with it!

 

[StMarcos]

This is true, I does it in the secondary at room temperature. It can drop the FG from 1.008 down to 1.000 or lower. I don't know how high you can start it out but if you have a bad conversion give it a try. Its better than dumping it out...

BTW - I have never used beano, I have always used brewing grade AE.

I have done so about 6-7 times and each beer has been dry, very clean and crisp. I did this almost all of last summer. It got to the point that other beers seem to have too much mouth feel. This seemed to be the case when I had a Belgian ale sitting out in the hot sun. As I stopped brewing the light beers, I got back into liking malty again.

Quite true. If you ferment a mash without boiling it, it will generally drop below 0. Which is quite a good thing if you're a malt distillery. But I'm not sure it is the alpha galactosidase (AG) doing the work - prob a and b amylase that were not deactivated during the mash. And something to do with limit dextrinase too maybe?