amount of juice in a wine kit

[maenad]

Wine kits (those for making 30 bottles) usually seem to provide about 4 litres of thick juice, which you top up with water and a kg of sugar. However, I've just realised that the ones from Wilko (UK) have only about 1 litre of juice, and require 3 kg of sugar for topping up.
I'm assuming this just means that the wine will taste less like fruit. Are there any other effects?

 

[bernardsmith]

I don't often make kit wines (I much prefer country wines and mead) but I have yet to find a kit that asks me to add any sugar, still less, a kilo. What kits do you make that are not concentratted pressed juice with some modifications for pH, and tannin? Totally unfamiliar with the brand Wilco, but if f they package a liter of juice, is the expectation, perhaps, that you are to make a gallon of wine and not 5 or 6 gallons?

 

[SatchIce9]

Wine kits (those for making 30 bottles) usually seem to provide about 4 litres of thick juice, which you top up with water and a kg of sugar. However, I've just realised that the ones from Wilko (UK) have only about 1 litre of juice, and require 3 kg of sugar for topping up.
I'm assuming this just means that the wine will taste less like fruit. Are there any other effects?

I'm from UK also. Those kits from Wilko will be "Grape Concentrate", rather than "Grape Juice".
Grape concentrate is fairly heavily processed grapes using heat to reduce water percentage and pack more into a smaller volume.
The downside I find is that the wine will taste less "fresh" than one made with a larger volume of fresher and lesss concentrated grape juice.
A few months ago I made a Magnum Med-Dry White 30-bottle kit (a £21 kit from the company Hambleton Bard) that was a 1.7Kg can of concentrate to which you have to add 3.5Kg sugar, so will be similar to the Wilko kit you refer to. After 3-4 months bottle aging it's an OK drinkable plonk if you're not too fussy, but I wouldn't proudly serve it to my friends. I find there's a slight note of stewed apples to the flavour - not unpleasant, but not like commercial wine.

I prefer to make wine from recipes using fruit I can forage at the right time of year (Blackberry, Elderberry etc). but outside of season if I want to make a 30 bottle kit of OK plonk, I've moved onto the £50+ kits that have a greater volume of juice (6-7 litres), like the Beaverdale kits. Generally the more expensive the kit, the greater volume of better quality juice it provides, the better the finished wine.

 

[JimboMarimbo]

I'm in England also, and have tried the 'no sugar required' 30 bottle kit from Vin Classe (pinot grigio version), and having been underwhelmed with the result, I thought I'd try the Magnum Dry white kit mentioned above, as they both seem to have the same use of 'concentrate' rather than grape juice, and the Magnum '3.5Kg sugar needed' is way cheaper - what's to lose?
I've hit a bump in the road, calculation-wise, and the internet could not be more divided with their opinions of the - I thought - simple question: adding 3.5 kgs of sugar to 6 Litres of water, what is the volume in litres of the resulting fluid (as I then have to top it up to 22.5 litres)? I can't get a straight answer from dozens of Phds in chemistry - can any of you shed light on this mystery?

 

[Coffee49]

7# of sugar in 6 gallons of water will get around 14 brix as you are aware 22 brix is needed for a yeast to fire up and eat properly, I would stay away from kits that have incomplete ingredients. I save the sugar for post sweetening the sweet or country wines, that being said the average retail bottle in the states is running $14, a far cry from $8 in 2008. Small batch home made will always be the way to go as long as the maker is learning from their shortfalls

 

[Maylar]

3.5 kg of sugar is about 4.14 ltr
Online Food Calculator. Food Weight to Volume Conversions

 

[SatchIce9]

I'm in England also, and have tried the 'no sugar required' 30 bottle kit from Vin Classe (pinot grigio version), and having been underwhelmed with the result, I thought I'd try the Magnum Dry white kit mentioned above, as they both seem to have the same use of 'concentrate' rather than grape juice, and the Magnum '3.5Kg sugar needed' is way cheaper - what's to lose?
I've hit a bump in the road, calculation-wise, and the internet could not be more divided with their opinions of the - I thought - simple question: adding 3.5 kgs of sugar to 6 Litres of water, what is the volume in litres of the resulting fluid (as I then have to top it up to 22.5 litres)? I can't get a straight answer from dozens of Phds in chemistry - can any of you shed light on this mystery?

I usually put 1 litre of water (boil the water in electric kettle first - its quicker) in a large saucepan and then add a 1 Kg bag of sugar, and heat pan and stir to dissolve. The resulting sugar syrup volume will be approximately 2 litres. So, if you dissovle 3.5 Kg of sugar in 6 litres of water, that'll be approximately 9.5 litres of syrup. (I don't have a saucepan that can hold that many litres, which is why I do it 1 Kg at a time.)
I use a 5 gallon fermenter that has a litre and gallons scale on the side, so it's easy to top up to 5 gal / 22.5 litre level.

You say you were underwhelmed with the Vin Classe 30 bottle Pinot Grigio kit. How long did you age the wine for before drinking it?

 

[SatchIce9]

3.5 kg of sugar is about 4.14 ltr
Online Food Calculator. Food Weight to Volume Conversions

Is that dry volume?
I think that that the volume that a given weight of sugar takes up will be smaller when its dissolved in solution. If you think of a bag of granulated white sugar, with all its little cuboid crystals, there will be a little bit of air between the crystals (think on a much larger scale about a jar full of randomly arranged dice, there will be air in the gaps between the dice), so when it's dissolved in solution the volume it takes up will be smaller than its dry volume.
In my experience, although I haven't measured it really accurately, when I've dissolved 1Kg of sugar in 1 litre of water, it creates a volume of syrup that's pretty close to 2 litres.

 

[JimboMarimbo]

Thanks for all responders - I have been forced to do some more research as I just could not believe the "one liter becomes two litres when one kilo sugar is dissolved" opinions. Cut to the chase - this is not correct, and in good scientific procedure, the proofs are given below.

Does adding sugar to water change its volume? Opinions differ...but not by much, here are three men of science – note that none of them say “the volume stays the same” or “1L water plus 1Kg sugar equals 2L liquid”! Although there are plenty on the internet that say just that.

“I have done several tests with various types of sugars (beet/cane/table sugar, dextrose sugar, dry malt extract) and they are all identical to each other within a few percent. The long and the short of it is that EVERY 1000 GRAMS OF SUGAR, WHEN DISSOLVED IN WATER, DISPLACES ABOUT 500mL OF WATER. (I.e. every gram of sugar displaces half its weight in water.)In other words, if you have 3 litres of water and you dissolve one kg of sugar into it, you end up with 3.5 litres of total volume of the solution.” Conclusion: 1 kg sugar will add 0.5L to a water volume.

“Yes, adding sugar to water DEFINITELY increases the volume. Dissolving sugar in water is a physical change, not a chemical reaction, it has nothing to do with the space between the molecules etc. 100g of sugar when dissolved in water, will contribute about 62.5 ml in volume ! This equates to 625ml per kilo – therefore, if you have 3 litres of water and you dissolve one kg of sugar into it, you end up with 3.625 litres of total volume of the solution.” Conclusion: 1 kg sugar will add 0.625L to a water volume.

“Adding sugar to water the volume will definitely change but not so much, for example….adding 1kg of sugar into 5L water will be equal to 5.7L [Not 6L].” In the above examples therefore if you have 3 litres of water and you dissolve one kg of sugar into it, you end up with 3.7 litres of total volume of the solution. Conclusion: 1 kg sugar will add 0.7L to a water volume.

So somewhere between 0.5L and 0.7L – let’s take the midpoint 0.625L multiplied by my own original query regarding 3.5K of sugar in 6L water, my 6L water becomes 8.18L total liquid. This enables me to adjust the amount of water needed to top up to 22.5L as in the recipe : 22.5 – 8.18 = 14.32L. As I am making a kit wine here from concentrated grape juice I will need to deduct from the 14.32 the volume of grape juice 1.49L = end result 12.83L.

 

[Coffee49]

Wether the amount of soution is 1 gallon or 5 gallons. Yeast will not start unless there is at least 21 brix (10%) sugar in said solution

 

[Kickass]

Wether the amount of soution is 1 gallon or 5 gallons. Yeast will not start unless there is at least 21 brix (10%) sugar in said solution

Are you saying yeast will not begin fermentation unless there is a sugar content of 21 brix or greater?

 

[Raptor99]

Yeast will not start unless there is at least 21 brix (10%) sugar in said solution

Not true. When I make hard cider (Brix 12.5 = SG 1.0505), the yeast has no problem starting.

 

[BrewCapsWhere?]

I'm in England also, and have tried the 'no sugar required' 30 bottle kit from Vin Classe (pinot grigio version), and having been underwhelmed with the result, I thought I'd try the Magnum Dry white kit mentioned above, as they both seem to have the same use of 'concentrate' rather than grape juice, and the Magnum '3.5Kg sugar needed' is way cheaper - what's to lose?
I've hit a bump in the road, calculation-wise, and the internet could not be more divided with their opinions of the - I thought - simple question: adding 3.5 kgs of sugar to 6 Litres of water, what is the volume in litres of the resulting fluid (as I then have to top it up to 22.5 litres)? I can't get a straight answer from dozens of Phds in chemistry - can any of you shed light on this mystery?

Where do I buy Pat Mack's Homebrewing Caps or similar? I use to buy from him
years ago but his website is not working so maybe he past away or sold the company?
Or changed his website? Eitherway I want them caps or similar so where do I buy?
I am in USA and Pat Mack lived in London so you might know of him or can find out?
Please thank you. [email protected]

 

[Coffee49]

I make wine and the juice prior to pitching yeast is a 21 brix or the wine will suffer In quality one year down the road

 

[Raptor99]

@Coffee49 A higher ABV will help to preserve the wine. For my fruit wines I usually aim for 11-12%. Beer and cider are made with a lower ABV, and they won't keep as long as wine. The yeast will ferment just fine, but there is not as much alcohol for long term preservation. Cider and beer are typically not aged for very long, although I have kept cider for 2 years w/o a problem.

As far as the question about how the sugar affects the total volume, my usually procedure is to add somewhat less water than the final volume, then add the sugar, and then add addtional water to bring the initial volume up the the desired level. That is a lot easier than trying to calculate how much the sugar will affect the volume.

 

[Coffee49]

I have to have 21 brix at startup as my pinot noir and marqette will finish at 14-16%. I will stop my diamond and concord at 0.94, that gives me a semi sweet base to mature for 10 months then at bottling I will post sweeten to get the perfect grape flavor for each