American Porter - Judges Want More Complexity

[Tomcat0304]

After reviewing my score sheets for my American Porter I entered in the 2016 Bluebonnet Brew-Off (personal brag moment, sorry, I scored an averaged 42.5 in the second round and took 2nd place in the category) all 4 judges in the first and second round asked for slightly more complexity. I brewed the Shallow Grave porter using the recipe from MoreBeer and adjusted to my process.



Measurements:

All Grain

OG: 1.073

FG: 1.013

Boil Time: 60 minutes

Batch Size: 6.10 gallons

Pre-Boil Volume: 7.25 gallons

Total Efficiency: 71.3%

ABV: 7.9%

Mash Ratio: 1.45 qt/lb

Ferm Temp 60*

IBU (calculated): 35.0

SRM (calculated): 32.2

Yeast Pitch (calculated): 291 billion cells

Carbonated to 2.4 volumes in bottle



Recipe:

14.2lb 2oz - Avangard Pale Malt - 2.0SRM - 80.7%

1lb 2oz - Crystal 40L - 40.0 SRM - 6.4%

1lb 2oz - Munich - 6.0 SRM - 6.4%

9oz - Black Patent - 500SRM - 3.2%

9oz - Chocolate Malt - 350 SRM - 3.2%

0.40oz - Columbus - 15.60% - 60 min - 16.4 IBU

2.0oz - Cascade - 7.10% - 15 min - 18.5 IBU

0.25tsp Super Moss

0.50 tsp Wyeast Yeast Nutrient

Wy1056 - 291 billion cells (calculated)



Personally, I thought it was an excellent beer. But, if there is room for improvement, I'd like to see if it makes a positive impact for my personal taste. My first thought is malt complexity, but would it not become muddy with more malts added? What would your suggestions be?



Thanks in advance!

 

[JediJoel]

Congrats! I have received similar feedback on an English Porter I submitted (although without the same score!). The grain bill was pretty complex so I think you are on the right track.

Something simple would be to use a different yeast that is still relatively clean but will add more esters for complexity. WY1272 can have a nutty flavor on the low end or a fruity on the high end which might bring out the cascade.

Another option, which might bring it away from style slightly is to add some sort of brewing sugar. Candi syrup can add some complexity. I used the DIY forum here to make some Deep Amber syrup, put it in a base stout that I already liked and it turned out great. Like I said, I'm not sure how the judges would feel about style if you listed ingredients but it would add complexity.

 

[jwalk4]

Yeah, 60F is a cold, cold temp. Some esters are a pleasant experience. Especially in such a strong beer.

Maybe mash at 154-155?

Congratulations on a great score though!

 

[lowtones84]

Changing yeast or fermentation temperature is a great idea. Another idea I had was perhaps splitting/"layering" your base malt. Perhaps use around half Maris Otter? Maybe a darker crystal malt in combination with the 40?

Something that I've been doing with English beers is making my own brewer's invert sugar, #2 which is kind of amber and brings some subtle fruitiness to the table. Or if you like the beer just the way it is, say "to heck with the judges" and keep it. It's their job to find something wrong, after all.

 

[FarmerTed]

You scored a 42.5. Personally, I wouldn't change anything unless you want the beer a little different yourself. The judges have to say something. I doubt they could give you a good idea on what to do if they had the recipe right in front of them.

 

[jwalk4]

. It's their job to find something wrong, after all.

Lol, yes. Who knows? Maybe of they did discover an ester they would have judged it harshly.

 

[GuldTuborg]

Personally, I thought it was an excellent beer. But, if there is room for improvement, I'd like to see if it makes a positive impact for my personal taste. My first thought is malt complexity, but would it not become muddy with more malts added? What would your suggestions be?

First off congrats on the highly judged beer.

I don't have specific recommendations to make, but sometimes malt complexity can be achieved by removing something, swapping something, or simply changing ratios, rather than adding something new. If there's a prominent flavor that you think is covering up other flavors, maybe try playing with the ratio you have to tone that down just a bit, so that other flavors can emerge.

It's tough to make any specific calls without actually tasting the beer, and you're just as likely to make a change for the worse when something is working really well already. Don't be afraid of a few failures along the way if you really want to make this even better. Additionally, consider a more characterful yeast. WY1028 plays very nicely in American style porters, and brings a bit more nuance than 1056 to the party. Little things like process, hop, and yeast changes are just as viable as malt changes at this point.

Whatever you do, good luck!

 

[slym2none]

I agree with lowtones' idea - use MO or Golden Promise for your base malt, go with a pound of the dark Munich, then 10oz each C-60 and C-120 instead of the 40. That's IF you want to really add some complexity. If I scored a 42, I wouldn't be looking at changing much of anything if I liked the beer as-is.

 

[iijakii]

Personally I find chocolate malt kinda just muddles the flavor. I think I'm in the minority on that though. Maybe if you removed that and added a portion of that to your BP you'd like it more.

 

[Revvy]

A couple things that popped into my head in terms of "adding complexity" was adding some elements from Historical Porters, such as Essentia Bina and Spanish Juice, or brewing with some Brett...

I've been fascinated over the years with the historical porter "adjuncts" since reading about them in zymurgyyears ago... We had a great discussion here, and here.

The brett article from BYO is fascinating.

 

[Tomcat0304]

Thanks everyone! I definitely felt that the comments were nit-picking, and that is understandable. I intentionally fermented cold to get as clean a profile as possible, however I think I will start with either fermentation temp or swapping some pale malt for MO or Golden Promise. When it was very fresh, I didn't particularly like the strong Cascade flavor and aroma in it; however it faded nicely after a few weeks. I thought it was reminiscent of Anchor Porter, which I find fantastic.

Thanks again!

 

[ddrrseio]

great job already - 42.5 is a hell of a score. it's tough to hit that even starting with a world class recipe, because, as jamil was told once, "you still have to brew the beer."

really great discussion here, especially the somewhat counterintuitive "less is more" regarding malt diversity. i have done very well with my porter, but only after scrapping a complex bill and building it from three specialty malts.

i also like the idea to experiment with yeast and fermentation temp. 60F is very cold and will stress yeast in a different way. they may struggle to clean up fermentation byproducts, your ester profile will be a little out of wack, etc.

 

[ziggy13]

I agree with most everything posted already. To me 80% base malt is just a touch high, so I might throw in another type of crystal/caramel malt as well as trying to swap some of the base malt for MO. A different type of yeast a few degrees higher would be nice as well. I would also use a different hop for your 20 minute addition. I was just reading the BJCP guidelines in my app and it says if there's going to be hop aroma or flavor it should be resiny, earthy or floral. While cascade does provide some floral to some people, to me it's much more citrusy which I'm not looking for in ANY dark beer unless it's a Cascadian Dark Ale. The only other thing I noted was the alcohol content which is very high for the style. BJCP says 4.8% to 6.5%. Did any of the judges note this and perhaps dock points for that? Normally I would say there's absolutely nothing wrong with that at all except you're entering this in a competition to be judged, so if I was judging based on BJCP I would definitely note it and take a few points off. Sounds like a great beer though!

 

[madscientist451]

all 4 judges in the first and second round asked for slightly more complexity.


My first thought is malt complexity, but would it not become muddy with more malts added? What would your suggestions be?



Thanks in advance!

The Judges gave you a hint as to why your beer wasn't first place, the first place beer may have been equal in many ways, but just a slight amount of complexity made the difference.
Jamil covered tweaking his own porter recipes in BYO magazine in 2012.
In the article, he mentioned adding complexity a few times using small amount of additional malts, and the selection of yeast and fermentation temperature.
Also mentioned was a 40/60 split in black patent and chocolate malt, your recipe is 50/50.
Your beer is obviously very good with the second place finish, I would think the best place to tweak the current recipe is the amounts of the current malts you are using. I'd play with the malts first and in later brews try different yeasts and fermentation temperatures instead of changing too much at once. Thanks for posting the question, good luck!
Jamil's article from BYO:

http://byo.com/mead/item/2506-robust-porter-style-profile

 

[ziggy13]

I'd play with the malts first and in later brews try different yeasts and fermentation temperatures instead of changing too much at once.

http://byo.com/mead/item/2506-robust-porter-style-profile

This is excellent, excellent advice. Change a little bit at a time, slowly, until you reach your goals.

 

[Qhrumphf]

Thanks everyone! I definitely felt that the comments were nit-picking, and that is understandable. I intentionally fermented cold to get as clean a profile as possible, however I think I will start with either fermentation temp or swapping some pale malt for MO or Golden Promise. When it was very fresh, I didn't particularly like the strong Cascade flavor and aroma in it; however it faded nicely after a few weeks. I thought it was reminiscent of Anchor Porter, which I find fantastic.

Thanks again!

That's judges doing their job. Proper BJCP judging procedure says any beer that's not a 50 point beer should have suggestions for improvement. In practice, once you get into the 40s (or at least a beer deserving a score in the 40s, some judges can inflate scores a bit), it's hard to necessarily come up with something constructive.

As mentioned, my first suggestion would be to change the yeast. 1056 is clean and ubiquitous, which if you're trying to stand out among other top entries with high scores (which in a comp like Blue Bonnet you have to), you don't necessarily want, unless you explicitly NEED super-clean (say, an IPA). If you're going to keep the ferment temp down, a cleaner English yeast may be a way to go. I'd even consider 1728 Scottish Ale, as it ferments clean but does have a little character, and at 60F in a Porter, even if it kicked out a smoky phenolic hint it'd play well. It will attenuate slightly less (although not as low as most English yeasts in my experience), so you may need to adjust your mash accordingly.

 

[cyberbackpacker]

Loads of great advice, and I am going to throw out another; sub ~1.5-2.5 pounds of your two row out, not for MO or Golden Promise, but instead with some 6-row North American Pale. I think it adds a very nice extra layer of complexity.

Next thing I would try is like mentioned above, decrease the chocolate and increase the BP; maybe 6 oz choc to 12 oz BP.

 

[Queequeg]

Personally I would use an English yeast, I really don't see the point of american yeast in Stouts and Porters, I see it as a missed opportunity.

I really like London ale yeast in porters because it brings out an almost smokey quality in the roast malt.

I think upping the fermentation temperature won't achieve much with a strain like 1056 because its such a neutral yeast to being with.

 

[Schumed]

Personally I would enter in a few more comps to get an average score before doing tweeking

Club meetings are even better to get real honest feedback..
Bjcp judging lots of judges write stuff because they have too

If you want complexity ...candi syrup ...special b do wonders for complexity

 

[Jhenjum]

I would replace 6-8 oz of C40 with C80. A little darker toffee flavor will do wonders

 

[meatcleaver]

I second m.o. for your base malt.
& for complexity you can't beat brown malt. personally I'd sub brown for the Munich.

 

[JKaranka]

I second m.o. for your base malt.
& for complexity you can't beat brown malt. personally I'd sub brown for the Munich.

I second brown malt. I'd replace crystal for brown malt, or some of the Munich.

 

[crusader1612]

After reviewing my score sheets for my American Porter I entered in the 2016 Bluebonnet Brew-Off (personal brag moment, sorry, I scored an averaged 42.5 in the second round and took 2nd place in the category) all 4 judges in the first and second round asked for slightly more complexity. I brewed the Shallow Grave porter using the recipe from MoreBeer and adjusted to my process.



Measurements:

All Grain

OG: 1.073

FG: 1.013

Boil Time: 60 minutes

Batch Size: 6.10 gallons

Pre-Boil Volume: 7.25 gallons

Total Efficiency: 71.3%

ABV: 7.9%

Mash Ratio: 1.45 qt/lb

Ferm Temp 60*

IBU (calculated): 35.0

SRM (calculated): 32.2

Yeast Pitch (calculated): 291 billion cells

Carbonated to 2.4 volumes in bottle



Recipe:

14.2lb 2oz - Avangard Pale Malt - 2.0SRM - 80.7%

1lb 2oz - Crystal 40L - 40.0 SRM - 6.4%

1lb 2oz - Munich - 6.0 SRM - 6.4%

9oz - Black Patent - 500SRM - 3.2%

9oz - Chocolate Malt - 350 SRM - 3.2%

0.40oz - Columbus - 15.60% - 60 min - 16.4 IBU

2.0oz - Cascade - 7.10% - 15 min - 18.5 IBU

0.25tsp Super Moss

0.50 tsp Wyeast Yeast Nutrient

Wy1056 - 291 billion cells (calculated)



Personally, I thought it was an excellent beer. But, if there is room for improvement, I'd like to see if it makes a positive impact for my personal taste. My first thought is malt complexity, but would it not become muddy with more malts added? What would your suggestions be?



Thanks in advance!

As it is an American Style Porter, I would suggest a tweak of the hop Bill, if you are looking for additional complexity? all the ideas above a valid and quite good. You could split the case addition, maybe with some centennial, or add some centennial somewhere else like 5min or flameout? Hops have the great ability to bring out other complexities in malts and yeasts, that otherwise wouldn't be present.

 

[cshamilton]

I second brown malt. I'd replace crystal for brown malt, or some of the Munich.

I'll 3rd the brown malt - I just add half a pound to mine. It's that something special that you miss when it's not there.

 

[rhys333]

I haven't read the entire thread, just the first page, so forgive me if I'm repeating some of this. First, I agree with a few comments about choosing a more characterful yeast strain, mash on the warmer side (154ish) and fermenting in the upper temp range too. I like to avoid having too many malts and getting things muddled up... less is more, malts playing off each other sorta thing. Your grain bill is simple and I'd stick with it. I suggest increasing your crystal malt to 10% and switching to C80. I like the raisiny complexity it brings and find I can push it even higher than 10% without coming across sweet. Excellent job on the competition btw!

EDIT: Just noticed the brown malt idea. Definitely a great suggestion, but I like that you have a really good beer going on already here and adding brown would make it something different... kinda. Enhance wotcha got already