American pale ale recipe- few questions

[Mishaos]

Hi,
I plan to brew tomorrow a batch of APA with extract.
The ingredients that I have:

Fermentables:
1. Briess pilsen light DME- 3kg
2.Crystal 60L- 350 gr

Hops:
Cascade (US)- 90 gr

Yeast: US-05

** I want to brew a double batch:
10L of APA
5L of APA with addition of thyme at the last 5 minutes of the boil.

I will be happy to get some advices:
1. How would you divide the hope addition?
I thought about:
40gr for 60 min
30gr for 5 min
20gr for dry hop
The thing is that according to brewfather, it will bring me to only 23 IBU (out of the style range)
** If necessary I can use all 90 gr of cascade for the brewing day and by some more for the dry hop.

2. How would you add the thyme and separate the batch?
I thought about boiling all together at first (~9 liters) and before the addition of the 5 min hops to split it into another boiling kettle and then to add the hops and the thyme for the smaller batch.
I'm thinking to divide it to:
5L wort for the 10L batch
2.5L wort for the 5L batch

What do you think?
Thanks in advance

 

[IslandLizard]

I just put part of your recipe into BeerSmith and get:
52 IBUs for 40 grams of Cascade at 60'
8 IBUs for 30 grams of Cascade at 5'

Check your %AA setting in your recipe formulator, 23 IBU is way off.
I entered 8.8% AA for the Cascade I have, which seems to be a fair, average number.

 

[IslandLizard]

2. How would you add the thyme and separate the batch?
I thought about boiling all together at first (~9 liters) and before the addition of the 5 min hops to split it into another boiling kettle and then to add the hops and the thyme for the smaller batch.

That's a good plan, splitting the wort for your Thyme batch off before the 5' hop addition. You can put that wort into another pot or even a bucket for the time being.

Note:
It's very OK to leave that Thyme batch wort you split off, for half an hour or even an hour while finishing the main batch. There will be a tiny bit of extra bittering from the extra time kept at high temps (200-170F) even for an hour, but I doubt anyone could taste it.
FYI, if you boiled those 40 grams of Cascade for 120' instead of 60', your wort would gain only an additionally 4 IBUs! That's for your reference.

 

[IslandLizard]

A few other thoughts:
20 grams for dry hopping may, or may not be quite enough for 15 liters of APA. Some modern guidelines for APAs say to dry hop with 1/3-1/2 oz (10-15 grams) per gallon, added 3-5 days before packaging. Depends on how hoppy you want it to be.

To brew a better tasting beer, I'd boil only half the extract for 60' and add the balance at 10' before your split and 5' hops addition.

Instead, you could add the balance of DME even later, when the wort has chilled to 180-170F, it only needs to be dissolved and pasteurized (160F for a few, 2-5 minutes). But since you're splitting it makes it all much more complicated than it needs to be.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

I'm lazy. I'd do the whole 15L batch in one go, then boil or steep some thyme in a bit of water separately and add to the 5L batch after it's all chilled in the fermenter.

 

[Mishaos]

I just put part of your recipe into BeerSmith and get:
52 IBUs for 40 grams of Cascade at 60'
8 IBUs for 30 grams of Cascade at 5'

Check your %AA setting in your recipe formulator, 23 IBU is way off.
I entered 8.8% AA for the Cascade I have, which seems to be a fair, average number.

Thanks for the detailed replay!
On brewfather, the defined value of cascade AA is 5.5% (this is the reason for the 23 IBU). Do you know why is there such a significant difference?

 

[Mishaos]

A few other thoughts:
20 grams for dry hopping may, or may not be quite enough for 15 liters of APA. Some modern guidelines for APAs say to dry hop with 1/3-1/2 oz (10-15 grams) per gallon, added 3-5 days before packaging. Depends on how hoppy you want it to be.

To brew a better tasting beer, I'd boil only half the extract for 60' and add the balance at 10' before your split and 5' hops addition.

Instead, you could add the balance of DME even later, when the wort has chilled to 180-170F, it only needs to be dissolved and pasteurized (160F for a few, 2-5 minutes). But since you're splitting it makes it all much more complicated than it needs to be.

Can you explain a bit why it will lead to a better tasting beer? I know that it will result in brighter beer because less sugars will be caramelized (correct me if I'm wrong).

Cheers!

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I'm lazy. I'd do the whole 15L batch in one go, then boil or steep some thyme in a bit of water separately and add to the 5L batch after it's all chilled in the fermenter.

@Mishaos, another option would be to create a tincture and add it at packaging time.

Also, be careful about adding DME/LME post boil. If you haven't done it before, adding and stirring the wort with the heat off can cool the wort more than expected -- you may have to add-back some heat to achieve pasteurization.

 

[IslandLizard]

Can you explain a bit why it will lead to a better tasting beer? I know that it will result in brighter beer because less sugars will be caramelized (correct me if I'm wrong).

Yes, it mainly reduces caramelization, perhaps leaving a fresher, maltier flavor. Even more so when doing partial boils, that are topped up with plain water in the fermenter, to your intended batch size and gravity.
Lower boil gravity also increases hop utilization, resulting in more bitterness from the same amount of hops.

Extracts have been thoroughly boiled already at the maltsters, creating wort, in a similar fashion as we homebrewers and commercial breweries do when brewing from all grain. That wort is then condensed to a thick syrup (LME) or further (spray) dried, making a dry powder (DME). When using extracts it merely needs to be dissolved (reconstituted) to wort again, in the right amount of water to yield the intended gravity.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

http://www.basicbrewing.com/index.php?page=basic-brewing-radio-2005
August 25, 2005 - Making Malt Extract with ...

November 17, 2005 - Hard Beers and Extract Advice

 

[IslandLizard]

On brewfather, the defined value of cascade AA is 5.5%

You should replace the software's estimated %AA values with those of the hops you're actually using.

Yakima Valley Hops' Cascade is listed at 4.5-7.0 %AA. HopsDirect lists 4-8 %AA. %AA depends on many factors mostly and varies with each actual season's harvest. I guess my 8.8% AA Cascade is a bit of an outlier.

Correct storage conditions of hops is crucial too. Vacuum packed or nitrogen flushed in (multilayer) mylar or otherwise oxygen barrier bags is best, and pretty much industry standard, as is cold, or better, "frozen" storage, below 20°F.

For illustration, Cascade loses 50% of her AA in 6 months (!) when stored at room temps. (Deep) frozen in vacuum sealed or nitrogen flushed mylar bags it fares much, much better. I've used Cascade pellets that had been in my freezer (0-4F) for 6 years, without any detectable degradation issues.

 

[IslandLizard]

I'm lazy. I'd do the whole 15L batch in one go, then boil or steep some thyme in a bit of water separately and add to the 5L batch after it's all chilled in the fermenter.

That^
Or just add your Thyme to the 5 liters you've split off, while it's still hot, and let it steep for 10-30 minutes at 180-160F or so, while you finish the main batch.
The smaller pot with 5 liters can be easily chilled in the sink filled with cold water. Just put a sanitized, well fitting lid on the pot.

I chill my starter wort that way.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I know that it will result in brighter beer because less sugars will be caramelized (correct me if I'm wrong).

If you have been reading a in a number of forum(s) on malt extracts (darker colors and unexpected flavors due to longer boils, ...) AND you plan to continue with extract+steep brewing for a while, check out Brewing better beer with Malt Extract. The article talks about using almost no extract at the start of the boil and includes a guideline for adjusting hops ("Your hop extraction will increase by about 25%, so reduce your boiling hops accordingly. ") that doesn't require typing a recipe into a recipe calculator.

There's also the idea of a "15 minute boil" - for example, American Pale Ale - 15 Minute Cascade Pale Ale. The idea can be extended to many other styles. I can look some links if there is interest.

Finally, since the late 2010s, "no boil (pasteurization)" recipes have become popular. Basically "hop steep" at 180F for 20-30 minutes. Less time heating and cooling (especially when a concentrated wort is used). Again, I can look up some links if there is interest.

 

[Mishaos]

If you have been reading a in a number of forum(s) on malt extracts (darker colors and unexpected flavors due to longer boils, ...) AND you plan to continue with extract+steep brewing for a while, check out Brewing better beer with Malt Extract. The article talks about using almost no extract at the start of the boil and includes a guideline for adjusting hops ("Your hop extraction will increase by about 25%, so reduce your boiling hops accordingly. ") that doesn't require typing a recipe into a recipe calculator.

There's also the idea of a "15 minute boil" - for example, American Pale Ale - 15 Minute Cascade Pale Ale. The idea can be extended to many other styles. I can look some links if there is interest.

Finally, since the late 2010s, "no boil (pasteurization)" recipes have become popular. Basically "hop steep" at 180F for 20-30 minutes. Less time heating and cooling (especially when a concentrated wort is used). Again, I can look up some links if there is interest.

Thanks for this comment!
I would like to get some links regarding these practices

 

[IslandLizard]

On brewfather, the defined value of cascade AA is 5.5% (this is the reason for the 23 IBU)

Getting back to that 23 IBU value in BrewFather...

In Beersmith by setting the hops to 5.5% AA, a 60' boil yields 32 IBU, not 23.
That lower number (23) you're getting may have something to do with the amount of extract you're boiling. Higher wort gravity reduces hop utilization (bittering, IBUs) significantly.

For example, when I drop the pre-boil gravity from 1.044 to 1.016 the IBUs go up from 32 to 42. That's almost 30% better.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I would like to get some links regarding these practices

Ideas for variations on "15 min pale Cascade Pale Ale": link

Ideas for "no boil (pasteurized)" (link, link).

 

[Saunassa]

Yes the 15 minute style works great for me and probably one of my favorite ways to brew. I add 56 grams @15, 56 grams @5, and 56 @1 for a 33 ibu. My cascade is 6.3% AA and this is a 5 gallon batch. Some cascade has been around 7% AA but I don't worry because tasting the slight difference is not noticable to me. Especially after the second one