Amber ale extract off flavor

[nomadbear]

First post...

So I'm a few batches in and have had great success. Except for two batches. They were both Amber Ale extract kits and both have the same off flavor.

Actions:
Followed brew schedule to the letter on both batches.

Steeped grain for 20m as instructed.
Pitched (dry)yeast at ~85F

Primary for two weeks.
Racked to bottling bucket after the two weeks and bottled.

Conditioned for two weeks in bottles and tasted. The taste isn't horrible but not pleasant. the off flavor is more on the finish, unfortunately I can't really place my finger on the taste. Almost like it's too bitter.

I'm thinking my pitching temps were too high.

I didn't do a good job at making sure not to get any trub in the fermenter.

Any thoughts, suggestions, or questions are more than welcome.

Thanks in advance!

 

[Transamguy77]

Yes I agree that your pitching temp was too high, I'm assuming that the dry yeast was S05 and that yeast doesn't like temps that high.

Is your off flavor an alcohol or heat flavor?

I wouldn't worry about getting trub in your fermenter, that will all settle out.

Can you tell more about your process? Do you know what your temp was during fermentation?

 

[nomadbear]

Yes I agree that your pitching temp was too high, I'm assuming that the dry yeast was S05 and that yeast doesn't like temps that high.

Is your off flavor an alcohol or heat flavor?

I wouldn't worry about getting trub in your fermenter, that will all settle out.

Can you tell more about your process? Do you know what your temp was during fermentation?

Thanks for the response Transam.
The first batch was Nottingham and the second was S05.

No not alcohol or heat. More like bitter, but odd. Some what similar to green beer, but it's (the second batch) been in the bottle for around 6 weeks now.

OK, I thought that was OK to do with the trub. I've been paying close attention now that I'm a few batches in.

---First batch (5gal intended batch size) Process:
Boiled 2 gal of distilled water (found out distilled water is not preferred, unless adding minerals for a specific style)
Added this to sanitized fermenter bucket at about 170F-180F to let it cool.

Started heating 3 gal of water for steeping grain and LME/DME.
In second pot placed LME container in hot water and applied heat to allow easy poor of LME.

Added steeping grain to water around 165F, turned off heat and monitored temp for the 20min steep.

Brought 3 gal to a boil and added DME and LME to boil with burner off to prevent scorching, stirred for about 5 min, applied heat, added hops, brought to boil. (LME was around 120-125F, I was having a hard time holding onto the container due to temp, hops added before wort was boiling, could have been an issue, thoughts?)

Boiled for 60 min, placed kettle in ice bath to chill.

Added roughly 2.5 gal of wort to fermenter with previous 2 gal of boiled water.

OG was 1.054 as expected.

Pitched yeast at 80-85F.

Fermented for two weeks at room temp (70-75F could be warmer during the day), racked to bottling bucket with 5 oz corn sugar, tasted after two weeks in the bottle and a few weeks after. It tasted the same regardless of time.

Batch was a little short of 5 gal close to 4.5.
---End first batch



---Second batch (5gal intended batch size) Process:
Boiled 2 gal of brita filtered tap water.
Added this to sanitized fermenter bucket at about 170F-180F to let it cool.

Started heating 3 gal of water for steeping grain and LME/DME.
In second pot placed LME container in hot water and applied heat to allow easy poor of LME.

Added steeping grain to water around 165F, turned off heat and monitored temp for the 20min steep.

Brought 3 gal to a boil and added DME and LME to boil with burner off to prevent scorching, stirred for about 5 min, applied heat, brought to boil, added hops to boil. (LME was around 120-125F again, I was having a hard time holding onto the container due to temp, hops added after wort was boiling, thoughts?)

Boiled for 60 min, placed kettle in ice bath to chill.

Added roughly 2.5 gal of wort to fermenter with previous 2 gal of boiled water.

Didn't take good notes on this one not sure of the OG but I know it was with in 2-3 point of expected OG.

Pitched yeast at 80-85F again.

Fermented for two weeks 2 at room temp (70-75F could be warmer during the day), racked to bottling bucket with 5 oz corn sugar, tasted after two weeks in the bottle and few weeks after. I still have a few bottles from this batch left so I can sample again to try and figure out this odd flavor.

Batch was right at 5 gals as intended.
---End Second batch

Both batches are drinkable when consumed with spaghetti or pizza. (something acidic)
I prefer to have beer by itself.

I started to think about my processes today. Is there any chance I'm leaching flavors form the LME containers (plastic) when heating them prior to use?
What about adding hops too soon to non-rolling boil?

I'm in full agreement the yeast was pitched to hot. I now have a wort chiller to solve this problem.

My second batch overall was a blueberry saison which turned out REALLY well. (Second amber ale was my third batch overall) Too bad I only made a 3 gal batch of the BB Saison.
I pitched the yeast at 80-85 as well with this batch. I know, different yeast and ingredients. Plus saison yeast likes higher temps.

I hope that's enough information.

Thanks again for the response!

 

[Transamguy77]

Ok that was a lot to read , your process looks fine and I was going to suggest a wort chiller but I see you already got one, that will help get those temps down.

I'm going to recommend buying 2 gallons of bottled water and putting it in the fridge the night before, that will serve 2 purposes, first it will cut out the first step of boiling water and second if you can't get the temp as low as you want you can add that 40 degree water and it will bring your temp down before pitching.

As far as adding hops before it was boiling it should be fine I do it and it's also called first wort hoping if doing all grain.

Your ferm temps are a bit high also, if you could get them below 70 that will help, if your ambient air temp is 70 your beer could be 10 degrees higher during active fermentation so look into a swamp cooler or find a place that stays cooler and on cement, it will help keep the temp more stable.

Hope this helps.

 

[JohnSand]

70-75 may be too warm. The yeast produces heat too, that may have been quite warm. I find that if I ferment Nottingham warm is results in an unpleasant off flavor similar to what you describe. When I have off flavors in bottled or kegged brew, I leave them to condition more. It doesn't always work.

 

[nomadbear]

Thanks for the help ya'll!
I'll take the advise to lower ferm temps and I like the idea of the bottled water in the fridge.
I've recently added temp strips to my fermenters as well as temp monitoring near the fermenters.
Lets see how the next batch turns out.

 

[JohnSand]

Keep at it. It took me a year to produce professional quality beer, and I still dump a few batches every year. But there is nothing quite like hearing people say "You made this? It's great!" Study and practice.

 

[Transamguy77]

Take detailed notes, if you go to brewers friend they have some good checklists, specifically a brewday one. If you make a fantastic beer you'll know how you made it and if it's bad you can look back and see your process and see what you did different and maybe know what to change next time.

 

[jabberwalkie]

Could it be extract twang?

 

[nomadbear]

Keep at it. It took me a year to produce professional quality beer, and I still dump a few batches every year. But there is nothing quite like hearing people say "You made this? It's great!" Study and practice.

No need for encouragement. I appreciate it though!

I've read through three books at this point and I need to revisit them all to retain information that I missed. I do have two beers at this point that I've had people say that. One of those two beers I thought was a complete failure, but my dad and a friends wife thought it was commercial beer which was funny.

"If you never try you can never fail."
^Words I live by.^

Take detailed notes, if you go to brewers friend they have some good checklists, specifically a brewday one. If you make a fantastic beer you'll know how you made it and if it's bad you can look back and see your process and see what you did different and maybe know what to change next time.

So far I've kept good notes, with the exception of the second amber ale. I think my biggest issue at the moment is lack of experience. Which is obvious.

I've been asked multiple times for my Blue Berry Saison again. My notes on this are fairly detailed. We collect berries every year and have about 70 gals of berries frozen so this is next on my list.

Could it be extract twang?

I don't think so. A batch that we've named Autumn Ale was an extract batch and it came out great. I think the issue was ferm temps.

Thanks again for all the input!

 

[kh54s10]

I see a couple of things that could and probably did lead to some off flavors.

Your recipe on the first one was for 5 gallons and you only ended up with 4.5. That will change the flavor, but mostly is should just have been a stronger beer.
The warm pitching temperature probably shocked the yeast a little. If that caused an off flavor it would be subtle.
The main culprit is the fermentation temperature. If the 70-75 degrees that you are quoting was the air temperature, your wort temperature could have gone to around 85 degrees. Much too warm.

Your beer will improve significantly if you control your fermentation temperatures (the beer itself) to the mid sixties for most ale yeasts.

Early addition of the hops is sometimes a preferred method and would make the bittering charge a little smoother. You might consider this even better than after the boil has started.

To keep the extract from darkening the beer and possibly making the flavor better try adding half of the extract at the beginning and the rest at or near the end of the boil.

If you are using dry yeast, rehydrate it first. If you are using liquid yeast, make a properly sized starter. These steps will not have a huge effect on off flavors but will give you the best chance of making your good beer better.

 

[nomadbear]

So I've narrowed down my issue to extract twang. I made a Belgian Wit that was a Brewers Best kit and received the exact same results. I followed the tips provided and fermented in a fermentation chamber at 68 (beer temp).
I started talking to my local shop about their extract kits and they see low turn over.

So all grain it is going forward. Thanks for the tips and pointers. I really appreciate the help!

 

[MaryB]

One thing I didn't see mentioned with extracts, distilled H2o is fine, the minerals are needed during the mash and are in your extract already so the cleaner the water the less impact on final flavor.

68 is still to high, I keep my fermenting fridge at 60-62 and the buckets will run ~ 5 degrees above this temp at peak fermentation.