Am I Screwed? Keg with after market posts lost pressure while serving as secondary...

[yourfriendmikem]

I'm in need of advice...

In late August I brewed an imperial stout. I let it sit in the primary for two weeks before moving it to the keg for secondary. The keg in question was an old 5 gallon corny with pin lock posts. I actually bought three at the time. Since I only use ball lock I ordered some new ball lock posts from amazon.

When I first got the new posts I hooked all three kegs up and I discovered major issues. Two of them wouldn't hold pressure no matter what so I decided to not use them. I was happy to have one that seemed to work after holding pressure for a few days. It was enough proof for me to siphon my stout.

Tonight a space opened up in my keezer so I pulled the keg up from the basement. No charge... not sure what to do at this point... I have a few questions.

1. Is the beer salvageable at this point?
2. Because all the co2 leaked out off the top will the beer be oxygenated?
3. What is the best method for moving the beer into a new keg? I was thinking of maybe using a siphon but I've also heard of keg jumping.

Any advice that you can offer will be appreciated!

 

[day_trippr]

Was the stout keg on gas while in the basement, or already carbonated before parking it down there, or did you just fill the keg, hit with a shot of CO2, then disconnect it and stash it away?

1 - the beer is most likely fine, it's just flat
2 - you thought the keg was holding pressure for a few days, which suggests if there actually is a leak it's vanishingly small. I'd be inclined to believe there'd be very little ingress of air.
3 - the best method is jumping from Out post to Out post, using CO2 to push the beer to a fully purged receiving keg...

Cheers!

 

[itsme6582]

The co2 doesn't just swap out. The excess volume vents and then your left with a blanket of co2 at atmospheric presure. Just carb it up. You'll be fine.

 

[Jwin]

The co2 doesn't just swap out. The excess volume vents and then your left with a blanket of co2 at atmospheric presure. Just carb it up. You'll be fine.

Except that keg will possibly empty your tank. Need to transfer to a purged keg or fix your post issue first. Beer's probably fine

 

[yourfriendmikem]

Was the stout keg on gas while in the basement, or already carbonated before parking it down there, or did you just fill the keg, hit with a shot of CO2, then disconnect it and stash it away?



1 - the beer is most likely fine, it's just flat

2 - you thought the keg was holding pressure for a few days, which suggests if there actually is a leak it's vanishingly small. I'd be inclined to believe there'd be very little ingress of air.

3 - the best method is jumping from Out post to Out post, using CO2 to push the beer to a fully purged receiving keg...



Cheers!

I transferred to the keg and added the co2, purged it a few times and added more. Can I still jump it even if there is a small leak? I may just siphon rather than tearing apart my lines

 

[yourfriendmikem]

Except that keg will possibly empty your tank. Need to transfer to a purged keg or fix your post issue first. Beer's probably fine

Since I don't really have a way to jump the beer I though I'd do this:

Sanitize keg
Fill and purge with co2
Release pressure and remove cap
Siphon from the old one to the new one

By filling the new keg with co2 before opening it I am thinking I will provide at least a moderate level of protection from oxygenation. Does that sound right?

 

[mongoose33]

Since I don't really have a way to jump the beer I though I'd do this:

Sanitize keg
Fill and purge with co2
Release pressure and remove cap
Siphon from the old one to the new one

By filling the new keg with co2 before opening it I am thinking I will provide at least a moderate level of protection from oxygenation. Does that sound right?

It would be better to fill the receiving keg w/ Star San; attach gas QD and purge a few times. There is only a little head space and 10 purges (of that tiny space) should be enough. Then push out the Star San before transferring. Otherwise you'll use a lot more gas and it won't be quite as effective.

If you have two liquid OUT quick disconnects and a 2-foot section of tubing or so, you can make a jumper. One black QD on each end.

Fill receiving keg w/ Star-San. Purge headspace as above. Push the Star-San out w/ gas. You can use the jumper to fill another clean keg w/ the Star San, making it ready to do this with for your next batch.

You can, if there's not another keg, push the Star San into a 5-gallon bucket. Take off one of the QDs from your jumper and use that to fill the bucket.

Here's the jumper I'm talking about; I made my own, didn't buy it: https://www.morebeer.com/products/beverage-jumper-line.html

 

[yourfriendmikem]

It would be better to fill the receiving keg w/ Star San; attach gas QD and purge a few times. There is only a little head space and 10 purges (of that tiny space) should be enough. Then push out the Star San before transferring. Otherwise you'll use a lot more gas and it won't be quite as effective.

If you have two liquid OUT quick disconnects and a 2-foot section of tubing or so, you can make a jumper. One black QD on each end.

Fill receiving keg w/ Star-San. Purge headspace as above. Push the Star-San out w/ gas. You can use the jumper to fill another clean keg w/ the Star San, making it ready to do this with for your next batch.

You can, if there's not another keg, push the Star San into a 5-gallon bucket. Take off one of the QDs from your jumper and use that to fill the bucket.

Here's the jumper I'm talking about; I made my own, didn't buy it: https://www.morebeer.com/products/beverage-jumper-line.html

Thanks for the info. Maybe I'll go to lhbs and pick up the necessary stuff.

One more question. The bad keg is 5 gal and about 4 gallons full. the good one only 3 gallons. I don't mind wasting the gallon since it's a weird situation, but what's going to happen when the small keg becomes full and the big one is still trying to press beer into it?

 

[yourfriendmikem]

It would be better to fill the receiving keg w/ Star San; attach gas QD and purge a few times. There is only a little head space and 10 purges (of that tiny space) should be enough. Then push out the Star San before transferring. Otherwise you'll use a lot more gas and it won't be quite as effective.

If you have two liquid OUT quick disconnects and a 2-foot section of tubing or so, you can make a jumper. One black QD on each end.

Fill receiving keg w/ Star-San. Purge headspace as above. Push the Star-San out w/ gas. You can use the jumper to fill another clean keg w/ the Star San, making it ready to do this with for your next batch.

You can, if there's not another keg, push the Star San into a 5-gallon bucket. Take off one of the QDs from your jumper and use that to fill the bucket.

Here's the jumper I'm talking about; I made my own, didn't buy it: https://www.morebeer.com/products/beverage-jumper-line.html

Thanks for the info. Maybe I'll go to lhbs and pick up the necessary stuff.

One more question. The bad keg is 5 gal and about 4 gallons full. the good one only 3 gallons. I don't mind wasting the gallon since it's a weird situation, but what's going to happen when the small keg becomes full and the big one is still trying to press beer into it?

 

[mongoose33]

Thanks for the info. Maybe I'll go to lhbs and pick up the necessary stuff.

One more question. The bad keg is 5 gal and about 4 gallons full. the good one only 3 gallons. I don't mind wasting the gallon since it's a weird situation, but what's going to happen when the small keg becomes full and the big one is still trying to press beer into it?

What'll happen is the beer will start coming out of the relief valve (which you must open so the CO2 has someplace to vent).

You may have to crack the lid so you can see the level inside. The other possibility is if the donor keg is cold, you'll likely see condensation on the outside of the receiving keg. You could use that to determine the level without opening the receiving keg to see.

 

[Jwin]

Just put a few paper towels around the gas post of receiving keg. Once it overflows, pull the liquid QD off and kill the gas. You could still bottle the remaining beer if you add new yeast. Just grab some CBC yeast and sprinkle a tad in each bottle.

NOW, are we 100% sure the seals are bad in the first keg? Or did the beer just absorb the co2? If you only put pressure on it initially and didn't fully carb it, this could absolutely be the case. Or it could have leaked out the lid if you didn't seat the lid with co2. Before you go all in, I would reseat the 5g keg lid with co2(handle up, at 40-50 psi, then handle down once sealed), then spray with star san. If you have a large clear container you could even invert the keg in it and look for beer coming out.

Note: this is why I don't understand converting pin lock kegs. Just my personal opinion but it adds another layer of potential issues as all posts are not threaded the same.

 

[Photopilot]

Do you know where the seals are bad?

Agreed with not approving of the pin-ball lock conversion. I used pin locks for a bunch of years. I used a bunch of variety of pin and ball for years, before I got a big collection of balls and got rid of my pin locks. You can put a female thread on the end of your hoses and swap out pin for ball lock liquid connectors. It is a pain in the but better than leaking.

I would put your pin lock posts back on that keg, carbonate it and see if it does not leak. Whatever sediment that is in the keg will pour out in the first few beers and should not be an issue after that as long as you do not agitate the keg. You could also bottle it from that keg.

 

[k1ngl1ves]

I transferred to the keg and added the co2, purged it a few times and added more. Can I still jump it even if there is a small leak? I may just siphon rather than tearing apart my lines

Wait. So you added the beer, hooked up the co2 and purged it a few times, then added more co2, then unhooked it and put it away?


The beer probably just absorbed the co2 until it equalized...

 

[IslandLizard]

Wait. So you added the beer, hooked up the co2 and purged it a few times, then added more co2, then unhooked it and put it away?


The beer probably just absorbed the co2 until it equalized...

... and the residual pressure in the headspace was not enough to keep the lid sealed.

 

[Photopilot]

... and the residual pressure in the headspace was not enough to keep the lid sealed.

Should it not be sealed just on the nature of the corney lid?

 

[mongoose33]

Should it not be sealed just on the nature of the corney lid?

There's not enough pressure from the bale on the lid to seat the O-ring properly. You need internal pressure to do that.

 

[IslandLizard]

Should it not be sealed just on the nature of the corney lid?

Some do, most don't.

The large O-ring is the seal, and often it needs a bit of pressure from inside to form a gas-tight seal. The lid and the seat may have small deformations or aren't matched perfectly, preventing it from sealing on the bail tension alone. In extreme cases, brewers sometimes stick a penny under each of the bail feet.

Take any corny keg, put 5 psi in it, spray Starsan around the lid seal, open the bail and look for bubbles. Press the lid 1/8-1/4" down in one place then go around that way and watch for bubbles. If you see none, that lid is likely sealed well. Without any pressure inside it becomes a different story.

 

[yourfriendmikem]

Wait. So you added the beer, hooked up the co2 and purged it a few times, then added more co2, then unhooked it and put it away?





The beer probably just absorbed the co2 until it equalized...

That's exactly what i did. Would the beer have absorbed so much co2 that there would be no hissing at all when I pulled the release? Maybe I'll try to charge it up again when I get home and check for leaks. It would be awesome if the keg actually works.

 

[yourfriendmikem]

Got home and tried it. Slow leak from the gas post. I tried tightening it like crazy but it's still slowly bubbling out

 

[yourfriendmikem]

What'll happen is the beer will start coming out of the relief valve (which you must open so the CO2 has someplace to vent).



You may have to crack the lid so you can see the level inside. The other possibility is if the donor keg is cold, you'll likely see condensation on the outside of the receiving keg. You could use that to determine the level without opening the receiving keg to see.

If I have to crack the lid anyway, would it not be easier just to siphon?

 

[Jwin]

Easiest fix, put pin lock posts back on if you have them. Then purge the headspace a few times. Better to avoid any potential o2 pickup at this time and no sense in going through the transfer if you don't have to. Now, this assumes you didn't screw up the threading on the keg post.

Here's some info for you:

http://www.dresselbrew.com/Keg_Info.htm

Not all posts are created equal

 

[Photopilot]

Got home and tried it. Slow leak from the gas post. I tried tightening it like crazy but it's still slowly bubbling out

Is it the poppet part of the gas post or the threaded part holding the gas post onto the keg? If it is the poppet or center part you can put the gas on it to keep it from leaking out.

 

[mongoose33]

If I have to crack the lid anyway, would it not be easier just to siphon?

Perhaps I wasn't as clear as I could be.

Here's me as I move beer from the fermenter to the keg. Before, I would simply pull up on the PRV and let the CO2 leave. As soon as you crack the lid you are admitting oxygen to the keg, and you want to minimize that as much as is reasonable.

Can't recall who showed it first (not me), but his idea was to take the CO2 that's in the keg and feed it back into the ferementer, so that as beer drains from the fermenter it's not drawing in outside air (filled with 21% oxygen) but rather the CO2 from the purged keg.

I try not to open my keg at all if I can. How much O2 is admitted when you do that? Not a ton, and I used to do it that way and my beer was good. I'm just trying to tweak my process to limit exposure to O2 as much as I can.

The two pics show 1) me transferring beer from a keg that had issues to one that didn't (sound familiar?). The second is the closed-loop way of transferring beer into a purged keg keeping O2 exposure as low as possible.

 

[yourfriendmikem]

Is it the poppet part of the gas post or the threaded part holding the gas post onto the keg? If it is the poppet or center part you can put the gas on it to keep it from leaking out.

It's the threaded part. Leaking out the bottom of the post. It's super tiny bubbles and the keg has held at least some fast for a day or so. I'm thinking that once I buy a jump tube I'll be able to move it without much of a problem. I'll just leave the leftover gallon in the 5g and use it later. Maybe experiment on it.

Lemons into lemonade.

 

[yourfriendmikem]

Perhaps I wasn't as clear as I could be.

Here's me as I move beer from the fermenter to the keg. Before, I would simply pull up on the PRV and let the CO2 leave. As soon as you crack the lid you are admitting oxygen to the keg, and you want to minimize that as much as is reasonable.

Can't recall who showed it first (not me), but his idea was to take the CO2 that's in the keg and feed it back into the ferementer, so that as beer drains from the fermenter it's not drawing in outside air (filled with 21% oxygen) but rather the CO2 from the purged keg.

I try not to open my keg at all if I can. How much O2 is admitted when you do that? Not a ton, and I used to do it that way and my beer was good. I'm just trying to tweak my process to limit exposure to O2 as much as I can.

The two pics show 1) me transferring beer from a keg that had issues to one that didn't (sound familiar?). The second is the closed-loop way of transferring beer into a purged keg keeping O2 exposure as low as possible.

View attachment 373714

View attachment 373715

Thanks for the clarification. I'm thinking the leak is so minimal that I should be able jump it. It's at least worth a shot.

The idea of feeding the fermenter with co2 from the keg is really cool.

 

[Setsumi]

I would just maintain pressure and drink.... but if you do have a serious leak, open the lid and siphon to another keg. And if you bottle the extra, someone suggested to add yeast .... BUT you would be better to add some sugar