Am I mashing to hot? -> getting too much bitterness

[barneyfresh]

Dear all,

So far I brewed 4 batches, with different ingredients, and different hops (incl schedule) etc.
The only thing I did the same was the mash temp (76C / 168/169 F).

All beers had the same sort of lingering bitterness. The first batches had loads of bittering hops, a newbie mistake (?).
The last one had very little (ipa), with most of the hops end of boil and dry hops (100gram Citra on 22 liters ). I wanted to steer clear of bitterness and move to hoppiness..

The last one is bottled yesterday. but I tasted the same sort of bitterness pre bottling as the others had pre (AND post) bottling as well.

On the Beer & Brewing site (and in the magazine) they use a lot of mash temps in the 144F-153F / 62-67C area..

Is this the new way to go for me? Did I extract tannins with the 4 brews?

hope to hear form you!

bart

 

[brewkinger]

Mashing at that temperature, I am surprised you got a fermentable wort at all.
Should have been very sweet and low alcohol.

Yes, mash between 149 and158.

 

[barneyfresh]

Thanks brewkinger! Do you think it made the bitterness as well? Cheers

 

[Saboral]

It could have certainly contributed. I suspect what you are tasting is actually astringency. You can pull tannins from the grains easily at 168-170 in temperature. That's why some people won't mash out. Its always best to keep the amount of time grain spends above 160 to a minimum.

What are your fermenting temperatures?

 

[barneyfresh]

Thanks Saboral!
Fermentation is around 20degrees Celsius on good average (19-22) its in my living room

 

[twistr25]

I agree with Saboral on astrigency. For curiosity's sake, where did you find the info on mashing that high? We need to steer people away from there.

 

[unionrdr]

Yes, indeed! 168F is more of a sparge temp in my experiences. Mashing is commonly between, say, 148F & 156F. I agree that tannin extraction is likely. So it's likely more astringency than bittering. Imagine sucking on a tea bag. That's astringency. Would that be more like what you're tasting?

 

[barneyfresh]

Thanks guys for responding! Yes that is the taste i am experiencing. I started brewring from a youtube vid, cant remember exactly which one but it seemed professional. The latest brews i started reading more and more. Shouldve done that before haha, i'm the type that doesnt read manuals , sometimes that works against me huh? Haha

 

[andrewmaixner]

Here's a basic enzyme/pH/temperature chart:
https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/_/rsrc/1329771004174/water-knowledge/mash enzyme chart.gif

So you see that you can mash as high as 165 and get conversion from alpha amylase. I have seen some recipes that mash at 158/159 intentionally to leave a very full body (I haven't tried it yet because I messed up my volumes and got a normal temperature on that batch).
Here's a good basic explanation of the enzymes: http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter14-5.html


Here's a more advanced chart also: http://www.braukaiser.com/wiki/images/b/be/PH_and_temp_enzyme_matrix.jpg

 

[barneyfresh]

Wow awesome! Thanks for sharing this with me!!

 

[Brew_G]

Just to clarify...

When you say that you mashed that high, do you actually mean you mashed the grains (did partial or all grain), or did you steep the grains and also use extract? I ask because 168-169F would be a reasonable steeping temperature (though on the high side) for grains in an extract brew.

 

[doug293cz]

It could have certainly contributed. I suspect what you are tasting is actually astringency. You can pull tannins from the grains easily at 168-170 in temperature. That's why some people won't mash out. Its always best to keep the amount of time grain spends above 160 to a minimum.

What are your fermenting temperatures?

To extract significant tannins, you need to have both high temps (168˚F, or above) AND high pH (about 6.0, or above). Keep the pH below 5.8, and you will not have tannin issues. If all it took was high temps, then all decoction mashed brews would be very astringent.

Brew on

 

[barneyfresh]

Hi guys, thanks again for responding to this thread!. I did all grain. I made sure the water was at 77C and then i added the crushed grains, stirred and let it sit for an hour.
So gonna brew another ipa with the same method but now with 65C

 

[barneyfresh]

Ah ok i found the video i mentioned earlier ( on the forum app right now so dont know how to link ) . Search for 'ipa falconers flight with joe'. Nice guy it seemd with helpful info
What i didnt understand and did wrong maybe is this: he checks his temp, which says 171F and then he adds the grains. In the info section of the vid he says mashed at 152-154.
I took that 171 and used this temperature like he did.

 

[TechyDork]

Hi guys, thanks again for responding to this thread!. I did all grain. I made sure the water was at 77C and then i added the crushed grains, stirred and let it sit for an hour.
So gonna brew another ipa with the same method but now with 65C

So you added the grains to water that was 77C? Depending on your grain temp that should have dropped down to a reasonable mash temp once you doughed in.

Did you take a temp reading after adding in the grains?

Normally your strike water would be several degrees above your target mash temp to account for the drop in temp from adding room temp grains to the strike water.

 

[barneyfresh]

Hmmm as a newbie i did not check the temp after adding them..
How should i proceed the next brew? Is 171 a decent temp then? What caused the bitterness, besides the hops, in all brews?

 

[TechyDork]

Hmmm as a newbie i did not check the temp after adding them..
How should i proceed the next brew? Is 171 a decent temp then? What caused the bitterness, besides the hops, in all brews?

171 sounds like a bit high for your water temp before you add the crushed grains. I usually target 8-10 degrees above my target mash temp, this will depend on your set up and may take you a few brews to get a feel for it. I would guess your mash temp was in the 160-162f range, this is still pretty high for a mash temp.

If i want to mash at 152 i would get my strike water up to 160-162 and then dough in (add the crushed grains to the water)

Then measure the temp, if you are a bit high you can stir the grains for a few minutes until the temp drops to your desired mash temp. Some systems will drop a degree or two during the mash, so if you are a degree high you may just want to let it be.

For me it is better to be a bit above my mash temp as it is easier to cool the mash down a degree or two than to heat it up.

As for the bitter (astringent) taste in your brews it could be tannin extraction as mentioned earlier. I would recommend nailing down your mash technique to ensure you are hitting your target temps and go from there.

 

[barneyfresh]

Legend! Thanks for responding so quickly and informatively. Getting great feedback from all of you!

 

[lilbova3]

+1 to all the posts about mashing too high and pulling extra tannins. Mashing too high should also produce less fermentable sugars which would lead to a sweeter beer which would balance your hops. But I don't think your tasting bittering hops. Maybe post your recipe? A more advanced part of brewing is water chemistry. Since beer is made up of 95% water it's a very important part. The charts above about mash temp and pH are very helpful. Do some research on water chemistry and download the Bru'N Water or EZ Water spreadsheet.

All my beers came out very bitter when I first started brewing too. I thought I always over hopped as well but realized that wasn't the case. I would bet you're getting astringency. Once you get your mash in the right temp and pH between 5.2-5.6 you'll get rid of that astringency and better tasting beer.