Alternatives for rice and corn...

[pkincaid]

Hey guys... I'd like to know some alternatives for flaked rice and flaked corn... please.

I don't want a stuck mash and I am thinking about brewing BM's cream of three crops cream ale today.

P.S... even more dumb question, does the flaked corn and rice need to go through the grain mill?

 

[Reno_eNVy]

Meh I've never had a problem with stuck mashes due to flaked rice or corn, especially not in the amounts required for BM's Cream O' Three Crops. But there really are no substitutes I can recall off the top of my head that are less likely to get gummy... almost all cereals create some higher risk due to high gluten levels.

If you're worried about it, get 0.5# of rice hulls. Rinse them very well with hot water in a strainer and add them to your mash at the beginning (well, I usually do it at the beginning.) This will give you a more porous grain-bed that is less likely to compact.

And no, flaked or torrified anything does not need to me milled.

EDIT: Dur, I forgot. You can also do a protein rest at about 120-130*F for 30-45 minutes; this allows protease and peptase enzymes to break down those long sticky gluten proteins and other large non-soluble proteins into amino acids that the yeast can use as nutrients.

 

[devilishprune]

You can use minute rice, but I'm not sure if you have to cook it or not first.

I've used 5 minute grits before, and I just chucked them in the mash. Interchangeable pound for pound with flaked corn. If you can only find the "classic" grits, then you have to do a cereal mash first (I think).

 

[Reno_eNVy]

You can use minute rice, but I'm not sure if you have to cook it or not first.

EDIT: Yeah that works, you don't have to cook it.

If you saw my first stupid post, ignore it ^_^

 

[Yooper]

That is true, and yes you definitely have to cook it first. You need to gelatinize the starch so the yeast can have access to it.

You don't have to cook minute rice, or flaked rice, before using. Regular rice, you do have to cook first.

If you're using rice and corn, you could easily do a cereal mash. It's not hard at all, and actually kind of fun!

 

[passedpawn]

no milling

Replace rice with generic minute rice from store. No boiling needed.

Although I've never done it, I don't see why corn flakes couldn't be used in place of the flaked corn. Wiki lists the ingredients, and it looks harmless. Probably will add more flavor to the CO3C, but might be a fun experiment.

 

[pkincaid]

You don't have to cook minute rice, or flaked rice, before using. Regular rice, you do have to cook first.

If you're using rice and corn, you could easily do a cereal mash. It's not hard at all, and actually kind of fun!

cereal mash? How is this done? I just wanted an easy brew day. What more is there? lol

For clarification **because me an my son just woke up from a nap** Flaked rice is interchangeable with minute rice pound for pound? Flaked corn is interchangeable with 5 minute grits, pound for pound?

 

[passedpawn]

If you are brewing AG, you can just add those adjuncts (minute rice and quick grits) to the mash. They have already been "cereal mashed". That's why they only take a minute, or 5, to prepare. If you use raw unprocessed rice, you will need a cereal mash. They sometimes use pressure instead of heat to accomplish the same thing. I think "rolled" grains are processes this way.


If you wanted to skip the "quick" rice/grits, and buy the big bag of cheap rice, you will need to do a cereal mash.

If you are doing a partial mash, you will need to add some malted barley in the cereal mash and let it sit and convert. Rice and corn do not themselves contain the enzymes to convert their starches to fermentable sugars. You provide the enzymes by adding some malted barley. (you can get enzymes in powder form from your LHBS, though, and just add it that way).

The purpose for a cereal mash is because starch in grain is non-soluble, and unaccessible to the enzymes that would like to break it down into simpler sugars. When cooked to a certain temperature, those starches irreversibly swell, gelatinize, and consequently the enzymes can convert those starches. the malted barley you get from the LHBS has been malted, of course, so the starches are already gelatinized for you.

Here's a chart that shows the gelatinization temps for a bunch of grains. Note that there is a range of temps for rice. This is because different species of rice have different gelatinization temps. Unfortunately, rice does not come with a data sheet. So, you have to heat it anywhere ABOVE the range in the graph (i.e., for rice, you will want to do a cereal mash of 180°F.

 

[Pappers_]

FWIW, I use minute rice and skip any of the corn products when I do a light cream ale like cream of three crops, because I don't like the corn flavor in the ale.

 

[Yooper]

FWIW, I use minute rice and skip any of the corn products when I do a light cream ale like cream of three crops, because I don't like the corn flavor in the ale.

You don't? I like it- the corn is sort of "sweet" without really being sweet, if you know what I mean. I bet it's much 'cleaner' tasting and crisper with only the rice?

 

[Malticulous]

Popcorn makes a mash flow better. Rice solids/extract don't go in the mash. A stuck mash is nothing. Stir it up again, vorlouf, and let her run again.

I did a cream ale with a cereal mash with regular rice (20%.) I was surprised by all the flavor. I honestly would have thought it was corn had I not known better.

 

[Pappers_]

You don't? I like it- the corn is sort of "sweet" without really being sweet, if you know what I mean. I bet it's much 'cleaner' tasting and crisper with only the rice?

Yes, I made two batches with corn, then tried, for reasons forgotten now, one without it and found I liked the rice and barley only version better. But its just personal taste - including corn is certainly more popular.

 

[passedpawn]

Yes, I made two batches with corn, then tried, for reasons forgotten now, one without it and found I liked the rice and barley only version better. But its just personal taste - including corn is certainly more popular.

I've made a rice-only cream ale and it was very tasty. There was a sweet, smooth flavor that I guess came from the rice.

Jamil's cream ale recipe does not use corn, only rice.

My only attempt at the CO3C, with corn, was a miserable failure.

 

[pkincaid]

I've made a rice-only cream ale and it was very tasty. There was a sweet, smooth flavor that I guess came from the rice.

Jamil's cream ale recipe does not use corn, only rice.

My only attempt at the CO3C, with corn, was a miserable failure.

May I ask what happened?
Thanks for all the info guys! I went and picked up minute rice and quick grits. I'll be brewing tomorrow. Today was a bad day. **I kicked my husbands ass**

 

[Pappers_]

Today was a bad day. **I kicked my husbands ass**

As a husband, I'm sure it was deserved.

 

[passedpawn]

May I ask what happened?

Some sort of infection. Not really bad, but any minor off-taste screws up my day. I think that last bottles of that batch were gushers and i had to dump them. Funny, I don't keep notes on bad things, only good things, so as i now look over that recipe I see nothing regarding this. It was long enough ago that my memory won't help.

 

[kornbread]

I use Minute rice right from the box into the mash tun.

The "quick grits", I usually do a cereal mash. I'm not sure if it's needed or not, but I figured It couldn't hurt.

 

[bkov]

table sugar is a good sub, does the same purpose

 

[Malticulous]

I use Minute rice right from the box into the mash tun.

The "quick grits", I usually do a cereal mash. I'm not sure if it's needed or not, but I figured It couldn't hurt.

A cerael mash will bring out more starches and more flavor much like a decotction. If your going to go and do a cereal mash Bob's red mill polenta is a more flavorful choice then quick hominy grits

 

[Malticulous]

table sugar is a good sub, does the same purpose

The flavor is nothing the same. Plus with these adjuncts you can adjust fermentabitly with the mash. Even pure corn starch is differnt than corn sugar for the same reason. Rice and corn are not pure starch.

 

[pkincaid]

As a husband, I'm sure it was deserved.

Damn skippy it was **goes to boneyard to vent**

btw...yellow or white corn? Does it matter?

 

[Reno_eNVy]

IIRC different colored corn kernels is simply due to a color polymorphism (at least, I believe, with domestic corn species. It could be that sweet white corn might have more yield but I'm unsure.

And yeah, I wouldn't use table sugar as a substitute. Corn and rice may make the body of a beer slightly lighter but not as much as sucrose does... and sucrose really doesn't add flavor like corn or rice does (as minimal as that may be.)

(sorry) This thread and the color topic makes me want to make the crazy experimental beer that Dogfish Head did: Chicha beer! If you don't know what this is, it's a little bit outside some peoples comfort zones: the brewer chews on crushed Peruvian purple corn until a paste is made and then spits the wad out onto a surface and lets sit for a couple hours. The saliva enzymes will convert the starch in the corn into sugars and will be dumped into the boil; like a tiny mouth-mash. I will likely just do a gallon of this with DME as the majority of boil... probably around 0.5# of purple corn.

 

[pkincaid]

IIRC different colored corn kernels is simply due to a color polymorphism (at least, I believe, with domestic corn species. It could be that sweet white corn might have more yield but I'm unsure.

And yeah, I wouldn't use table sugar as a substitute. Corn and rice may make the body of a beer slightly lighter but not as much as sucrose does... and sucrose really doesn't add flavor like corn or rice does (as minimal as that may be.).

Yeah, just like in baking, sometimes different corn lends different **albeit subtle** flavors. I was just double checking.

 

[Malticulous]

I've used yellow and white popcorn. I can't say I noticed any difference. Hominy grits and yellow polenta are quite a bit different. Hominy grits are more like PBR, polenta is more like High Life.

 

[cval]

I apologize in advance for resurrecting this old thread but my question seems to fit really well here.

I'm trying to brew the cream of three crops by bm and there's no lhbs. The closest one is located over 4hrs from me and the online suppliers on Mexico don't carry flaked corn. Now since I live in Mexico, hominy (pozole grain or nixtamalizado maize) is widely available and I was wondering if I could grind some dried hominy, gelatinize it and use it instead of the flaked corn. Is it possible? Can i do the white rice and hominy cereal mash at the same time?

Thanks in advance and again, apologies for bringing up this old thread.

 

[Malticulous]

Just use masa de maíz, it will save you a lot of work.

 

[cval]

masa de maiz i can get literally in the same block my house is in, that's pretty cool. So I should just mash with the rest of the grain and skip the cereal mash? If that's so, things are looking pretty good to brew this one over the weekend, thanks!

 

[Malticulous]

I'd boil it and the rice for 20 minutes in a few quarts per pound to cook it. Just add that to the rest of the strike water.

 

[Pappers_]

i'd boil it and the rice for 20 minutes in a few quarts per pound to cook it. Just add that to the rest of the strike water.

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