Altbier

[Jloewe]

Looking for opinions on an upcoming Altbier I want to brew

Using Brewfather to design

4 gallons into fermenter after all said and done.

33.1 % pils
32.1% Munich
22.1% Vienna because why not?
6.2% caramunich iii
4.1% caramel 10 because I have it on hand and think it’s fun to add a kiss of sweetness
1.4% carafa to drag that stubborn Srm as dark as I wanted it

Probably a single step mash at 150

Might decoct a couple pounds at the end of the mash because I kind of just want to. And it will be tasty.

60 min boil

1oz Hautauer mittenfrau at 60
1 oz tettnag at 10
1oz spalt at flameout

Fermenter with either Voss or Lutra because I’m a rebel and do what I want…. Plus they seem to fit the description of what an alt should do.

 

[hottpeper13]

I've used Lutra in these kinds of brews and found that no matter the grain bill or mash temps from 148-154 all of them finished at 1.010 and crystal clear. The Voss doesn't clear for me but I only use it in IPA's. I think the key to not getting that Kveik twang is to chill the wort to cold break temps and pitch .75 ml/L /*plato which is the standard ale yeast pitch rate. Pitch at cold break temp of ~68* and bring to 76*,then when it slows some bring to 86* to finish. I keg on day 14 and lager for 2-4 weeks.
IMHO, I would only use Lutra strain if I didn't have temp control ,mostly because they all taste better at the 4-6 week GtoG and 1007 and 2565 are good to go in this time frame. Voss is my go to IPA yeast and can be tapped in 3-4 weeks,I've tapped then at 12 days and while tasty they improve with 2 weeks in the 33* lagerator.

 

[Miraculix]

Kveik doesn't make an Altbier, neither does caramel or crystal malt.

No, they don't fit the description what an alt should be like.

I'd happily accept an Alt as Alt with lager yeast but certainly not with kveik.

 

[balrog]

I gotta go with @Miraculix whole heartedly on the kveik opinion - there's always a twang/fruit/must from any of the kveiks i've used.

I like good ole' WY1007 at 60F for Alt.

<I also sneak in some C-type malt sometimes to my Alt but don't tell him>

 

[Miraculix]

I gotta go with @Miraculix whole heartedly on the kveik opinion - there's always a twang/fruit/must from any of the kveiks i've used.

I like good ole' WY1007 at 60F for Alt.

<I also sneak in some C-type malt sometimes to my Alt but don't tell him>

Why would you want crystal in there? Has nothing to do with traditional German brewing and doesn't benefit this particular beer in any way. I've just had a commercial alt yesterday. There wasn't even a hint of any crystal detectable. Still loads of flavour.

 

[balrog]

Somehow I knew I'd reinvigorate my internet excoriation when I mentioned C-malts and what I call my Alt. In my defense, it was a recipe I started my homebrewing journey with that was for a clone of a beer that was called an Alt but really was more English Bitter/American Brown cross hybrid bastardization. I simply adjusted over the years to make something I really like, and should have, in retrospect, stopped calling it an Alt long ago. You'll be equally horrified to know that I use Maris Otter as the base malt. And while it bears little resemblance to the original recipe, I continue to call it "Alaskan Amber", for the simple reason that everyone in the tennis group knows it as that and I simply cannot change it, for "marketing reasons" even though I'm no professional. But neither are the tennis mooks.

 

[DBhomebrew]

because why not?

because I have it on hand and think it’s fun

because I kind of just want to

because I’m a rebel and do what I want

Are you sure you're looking for opinions?

 

[Miraculix]

Somehow I knew I'd reinvigorate my internet excoriation when I mentioned C-malts and what I call my Alt. In my defense, it was a recipe I started my homebrewing journey with that was for a clone of a beer that was called an Alt but really was more English Bitter/American Brown cross hybrid bastardization. I simply adjusted over the years to make something I really like, and should have, in retrospect, stopped calling it an Alt long ago. You'll be equally horrified to know that I use Maris Otter as the base malt. And while it bears little resemblance to the original recipe, I continue to call it "Alaskan Amber", for the simple reason that everyone in the tennis group knows it as that and I simply cannot change it, for "marketing reasons" even though I'm no professional. But neither are the tennis mooks.

I'm all for brewing according to ones own taste! I just don't like to blur lines that are actually fairly clear. If I buy an Altbier here in Germany, I expect it to taste like an alt and not like an Americanised version of it.

 

[Protos]

I wonder, why those Deutsch-sounding designations are so popular to christen completely unrelated brews? It's not even style bastardisation, there's zero bytes of Alt genome in this recipe. Although it may turn out a nice beer otherwise.

What shame is it in calling the beer a Brown Ale or a Modern Kveiky Brown Ale, which it actually is?

...And every time it's German. English beers seem to have better luck with that: I'm still to see an American specialty beer emphatically claimed to be a Burton Ale and nothing else
Maybe it's like with coffee, where everything must sound Italian.

 

[Jloewe]

I wonder, why those Deutsch-sounding designations are so popular to christen completely unrelated brews? It's not even style bastardisation, there's zero bytes of Alt genome in this recipe. Although it may turn out a nice beer otherwise.

What shame is it in calling the beer a Brown Ale or a Modern Kveiky Brown Ale, which it actually is?

...And every time it's German. English beers seem to have better luck with that: I'm still to see an American specialty beer emphatically claimed to be a Burton Ale and nothing else
Maybe it's like with coffee, where everything must sound Italian.

Zero bytes? Maybe I’m off my rocker but Munich and Pilsner are what traditionally make up an Alt right? Saaz from my research was pretty on target I thought. I’m confused as to how other than the Kviek I’m all that far off.

 

[balrog]

Zero bytes? Maybe I’m off my rocker but Munich and Pilsner are what traditionally make up an Alt right? Saaz from my research was pretty on target I thought. I’m confused as to how other than the Kviek I’m all that far off.

You aren't.
https://learn.kegerator.com/altbier/https://www.bjcp.org/style/2015/7/7B/altbier/

 

[Jloewe]

Are you sure you're looking for opinions?

This was meant to be a little tongue and cheek in preparation for the ensuing flame war that comes after any posted recipe on homebrew talk.

 

[Protos]

In two words: classic Altbier is circa 90% Pilsner, so it contains very little coloured malts. And the hop of choise for it is Spalter, not Saazer.
And Kveik fully excludes the beer from any German category

But even with the right ingredients, to get a true to the style recipe for an Altbier isn't as simple as many think (as I thought too, when was starting my research). The closest approximation to the most famous Uerige Altbier is published in The Secrets of the Master Brewers by Alworth. Even the author had to do much educated guesswork, despite communicating directly with the brewery.
To brew my first real Altbier I had to buy this book. If you really want to make an Altbier, I may share some hints from Alworth a bit later.

 

[Miraculix]

You aren't.
https://learn.kegerator.com/altbier/https://www.bjcp.org/style/2015/7/7B/altbier/

Don't ask the bjcp guys for realistic and true to the original foreign beer type definitions please. They often just don't know what they are talking about.

 

[balrog]

Where do you stand @Miraculix on whether there's a Dusseldorf Alt vs a northern German alt?

 

[wepeeler]

I recently had an Altbier dinged in competition for being too roasty and chocolatey. Both are not present in a true Altbier. The judges loved the beer, but it wasn't "true to style". It should be malty, but not sweet. You want it crisp. Drop the crystal. Maybe use Caramunich II instead of III (I used Caramunich I). You don't want a lot of caramel flavor.

I had great luck using Omega Kolsch II. It dried out nicely - 1.012 from 1.052. Some will say Kolsch yeast can't make an Alt, but I prefer it to 1007 and Dusseldorf yeast. I used Magnum for bittering and Tettnang @15.

I've re-written the recipe and removed any of the roasted malts I used.

Just my 2 cents from recent competition feedback!

 

[Miraculix]

Where do you stand @Miraculix on whether there's a Dusseldorf Alt vs a northern German alt?

By definition, there is only a Düsseldorf Alt as the name Alt can only be used when brewed within a certain region.

However, I don't care about this regional thing, all I care is if it tastes right or not.

 

[Jloewe]

@Protos to answer your question earlier about why there’s always a bastardization of German beers. At least here in America, there’s a tendency for better or worse to kind of shun tradition. Like why CAN’T I make a malt forward ale with a clean yeast? Saaz, Spalt, Tettnag…. They’re all German who cares which one I use as long as it’s good. There’s also a tendency to look for newer and different ways to make everything.

From what I have come to understand German beers are a bit…. Stricter than English or American styles. Also you’re right. Someone here’s a German sounding name we assume it’s good beer, even if it’s not (I’m looking right the f@ch at you Budweiser! All your mass produced cronies too!) It’s used as marketing in the US.

Also I’m guessing from your comments or I should say the way they’re written you’re not American.

 

[Protos]

Yeah, I'm not an American. Neither a German (though I'm definitely closer to the German culture than to English or American). What might be more important in my stance on historical styles, I'm historian who's been working all my life exactly on topics of culture, traditions and intangible cultural heritage. Now that greatly helps in my hobby beer history researches.
I know well there's such a school of thought you are talking about (not just about beer) that the "outdated" rules have no meaning anymore and shouldn't be abided. Much of european cultural heritage have already been lost because of that approach. Why to continue this trend into the historical beer tradition, which is already pretty feeble after the industrial takeover of the 20th century? Nothing forbids us to invent our new styles, but the well-defined traditional styles should be respected, otherwise they'll vanish.

You can't just make up something on a whim and call it an "Altbier" or an "Oktoberfect", even for marketing purposes. You absolutely can create a new type of Altbier, but first you should firmly know what the classic Altbier is. Your personal take on the classic style may contain this or that proportion of grains (but never just a third of Pilsner malt, as no Alt contains as little), it may contain this or that strain of German Ale yeast (but never Kveik, otherwise there's no reasons to assign a German name to your beer, as Kveik has nothing to do with German brewing), this or that combination of hops (your hop schedule, btw, unlike grains and yeast, lays pretty within the style frames).

I'm not here to "convert" you or, God forbid, to teach you. You posted your recipe and said it fitted the description of Alt. I think I have some idea on what a traditional Altbier should be like, and even to which extent you may modernize the old style for it to stay in the Altbier ballpark. So I shared my feedback that the recipe didn't fit the Altbier style, but even if it didn't it still might turn out to be a good beer, just not an Altbier (is that a big deal?). Sorry if I sounded too categorical, I didn't mean to, it's just beer, not politics after all

Like why CAN’T I make a malt forward ale with a clean yeast?

No you can't, because you labeled your brew as an Altbier. You could, if you named it something different - Kveiky Brown Ale, or Maerzen-Style Kveik etc. Altbier is not malt-forward. It's bitter, dark (only in colour, no roasty flavours) and clean-fermented.
That's the importance of knowing your styles.
To know them well, you don't need to delve into obscure German sources. Even the BJCP stylebook provides an overall correct overview of the style.

 

[Miraculix]

Yeah, I'm not an American. Neither a German (though I'm definitely closer to the German culture than to English or American). What might be more important in my stance on historical styles, I'm historian who's been working all my life exactly with topics of culture, traditions and intangible cultural heritage. Now that greatly helps in my hobby beer history researches.
I know well there's such a school of thought you are talking about (not just about the beer) that the "outdated" rules have no meaning and shouldn't be abided. Much of human cultural heritage have already been lost because of that approach. Why to continue this trend into the historical beer tradition, which is already pretty feeble after the industrial takeover of the 20th century? Nothing forbids us to invent our new styles, but the well-defined traditional styles should be respected, otherwise they'll vanish.

You can't just make up something on a whim and say it's an "Altbier" of a "Oktoberfect", even for marketing purposes. You absolutely can create a new type of Altbier, but first you should firmly know what the classic Altbier is. Your personal take on the classic style may contain this or that proportion of grains (but never just a third of Pilsner malt, as no Alt contains as little), it may contain this or that strain of German Ale yeast (but never Kveik, otherwise there's no reasons to assign a German name to your beer, as Kveik has nothing to do with German brewing), this or that combination of hops (your hop schedule, btw, unlike grains and yeast, lays pretty within the style frames).

I'm not here to "convert" you or, God forbid, to teach you. You posted your recipe and said it fits the description of Alt. I think I have some idea on what a traditional Altbier should be, and even to which extent you may modernize the old style for it to stay in the Altbier ballpark. So I shared my feedback that the recipe doesn't fit the Altbier style, but even if it doesn't it still may turn out to be a good beer, just not an Altbier (is that a big deal?). Sorry if I sounded too categorical, I didn't mean to, it's just beer, not politics after all



No you can't, because you labeled your brew as an Altbier. You could, if you named it something different - Kveiky Brown Ale, or Maerzen-Style Kveik etc. Altbier is not malt-forward. It's bitter, dark (only in colour, no roasty flavours) and clean-fermented.
That's the importance of knowing your styles.
To know them well, you don't need to delve into obscure German sources. Even the BJCP stylebook provides an overall correct overview on the style.

Pretty much also my point of view. Thanks for taking the time to type it all down.

 

[AlexKay]

I thin @Jloewe should get more credit here. More or less, they've come up with a recipe that will give a clean-fermented (provided they don't use Voss, ugh) beer made largely from German base malts, with some color and malt character but not a lot of roast, and noble hops. If the bitterness is high enough (can't tell without the specific AA values), it's probably closer to Altbier than anything else, though depending on the strength and bitterness it's also arguably in Bock/Vienna territory.

Personally, I'd drop the C10 (I just don't like American caramel malts) and use Lallemand Koln (if I could manage a ~60 F fermentation) or some other clean ale yeast or even warm-fermented W34/70 (if I couldn't). That would just suit me better.

But "this is my German-inspired clean-fermented red-brown-ish moderately bitter beer that's closer to an Altbier than most other styles" ... doesn't that seem like a mouthful? Isn't "this is my Altbier" a pretty reasonable shortcut for that, especially since we aren't even running up against a PGI?

 

[OakIslandBrewery]

This has been a very educational thread.

 

[Protos]

Isn't "this is my Altbier" a pretty reasonable shortcut for that,

Please, may I not repeat my lengthy reasonings why kveiky brews can't be called anything German-like, even as a shortcut? And why this particular recipe isn't an Alt by any means, although it's not a bad recipe per se?

May I please hand over my ward to some other cop from die Deutschebierpolizei?

I thin @Jloewe should get more credit here.

Jloewe definitely deserves more credit here because he asks for feedback on his recipe and doesn't teach others how to brew Altbier without acquiring first some solid knowledge on the subject. Way too often we may observe people acting otherwise on forums or, especially, on their blogs and videos. One of the results of such teachings is, for example, a popular faith in that the norwegian yeasts are good for everything, even for the Communion Wine.

 

[balrog]

Once you pick it up, it’s yours!
But very informative and I appreciate that.

 

[Protos]

Where do you stand @Miraculix on whether there's a Dusseldorf Alt vs a northern German alt?

I feel jealous you asked Miraculix and not us both I'd have to say something along the lines of that cute "Northern Brown Ale" vs "Southern Brown Ale" discussion...
Let Miraculix give the answer, there's already too much of Protos in this thread

 

[passedpawn]

Looking for opinions on an upcoming Altbier I want to brew

Using Brewfather to design

4 gallons into fermenter after all said and done.

33.1 % pils
32.1% Munich
22.1% Vienna because why not?
6.2% caramunich iii
4.1% caramel 10 because I have it on hand and think it’s fun to add a kiss of sweetness
1.4% carafa to drag that stubborn Srm as dark as I wanted it

Probably a single step mash at 150

Might decoct a couple pounds at the end of the mash because I kind of just want to. And it will be tasty.

60 min boil

1oz Hautauer mittenfrau at 60
1 oz tettnag at 10
1oz spalt at flameout

Fermenter with either Voss or Lutra because I’m a rebel and do what I want…. Plus they seem to fit the description of what an alt should do.

No worries, you'll make a beer that tastes good. I've got an altbier on tap that is 6.4% (not by design - new system aaaah!) and it's pretty danged tasty. Altbier, even sticke? Nah. It's something else.

Definitely no caramel/crystal malts in a altbier.

 

[Protos]

Zum Ueriges actually uses some Caramunich I, at 3% of the grist...
But yeah, Ueriges Alt isn't just the most famous of the Alts but also the least typical one, another distinguishing feature being atypically high bitterness at 48 IBU.

 

[thiagoedwardo]

so considering a more traditional altbier recipe, but trying to avoid the decotion, what would be and optimal grainbill?

 

[Miraculix]

so considering a real altbier recipe, but trying to avoid the decotion, what would be and optimal grainbill?

FTFY

 

[Protos]

OK, here are some suggestions for a traditional Alt recipe.
I'm not a brewing guru, so I won't suggest my own iterpretations of the style. I better refer to those whom I think to be the real gurus.

One is Kai Troester (he is present on this forum too), whose traditional German recipes are impeccable from the authenticity point of view. All of them are brewworthy and I believe I've brewed all of them (or almost all). Every time a great success. Here's his take on the Altbier style: Kaiser Alt. Check his other recipes too and pay special attention to the water profiles he suggests. Building the right water helps you to make your beers authentic no less than using right malts or hops.

Another guru is Jeff Alworth with his great book The Secrets of the Master Brewers. In his book he gives some really useful tips on brewing this style and tells about his communication with the secretive and uncooperative Zum Ueriges brewery staff (LOL, they should be, taking into account that the brewery's German name means "Grumpy"). The recipe he publishes is based partly on what he'd been able to extract from the brewery and partly on his educated guess. I think I have no right to publish his entire recipe because of the copyright law, so I'll give out just some snippets: OG1.048, FG1.010, ABV5%, IBU45-50, Pilsner Malt - 90%, Caramunich I - 3%, Roasted Malt - 1%, single hopping.

Finally, there's a solid example of the style brewed on Weyermann's own brewery: Weyermann® Nr. 37 Rheinaufwärts Alt (see the attached PDF file below in the thread). This is more or less a standard version of the modern Alt. Jamil Zainashef's, Gordon Strong's and Greg Huge's versions go along the same lines too: pretty bitter (up to 53 IBU in Strong), a bit of Crystal, a healthy addition of Munich, Spalter or Tettnanger late hopping.

The list of possible suggestions is far from being exhausted, but I think these three different takes on the old style are enough for now.

---
Addition on the uneasy question on Crystal in the Altbier:

Generally, you don't need Crystals in any German beer. Historically, Crystal Malt is a purely British thing. Altibier is kind of an exception because of its higher than usual biterness. As far as I understand, the presence of Crystal in the grist depends not on the whim of the brewer, but on the planned level of bitterness. Altbier should be a firmly bitter beer, though not as bitter as a classic English IPA. So, when you aim for 40 or 50 IBU, as Zum Ueriges or Weyermann do, you may need to somewhat level it out with a bit of a good German Crystal. When, however, you stay in the more traditional 27-30 range, like Kai, you don't need any Crystal at all. Nothing to say about those whopping 30% of Crystal at 23 IBU which Horst Dornbusch (a knowledgeable and experienced author but maybe already too much of a guru-turned-god aimed to re-create the universe from the scratch) preaches in his Altbier book in the Classic Beer Styles series. Numerous Alt recipes with silly levels of Crystal are scattered throughout the web and all they certainly derive from that unfortunate book. The more strange it is that in his Ultimate Almanach of the World Beer Recipes Mr. Dornbusch provides much saner recipe (and, quite possible, he's the author behind the linked Weyermann's version).

 

[balrog]

there's a solid example of the style brewed on Weyermann's own brewery: Weyermann® Nr. 37 Rheinaufwärts Alt. This is more or less a standard version of the modern Alt.

From the description therein: "The bouquet has fleeting notes of banana esters and clove"
<yeast recommendation is US05>

??

 

[Protos]

Wut the hell...
Ah, now I see: they've updated the linked recipe.
Here's the initial version of it I had saved offline. It's what I was referring to. The recommended yeast is K-97.
"Banana esters and clove" anyway... Disregard the silly esters description, esters will depend of the yeast of your choise.

US-05 fermented cold isn't the worst option BTW. In any case, far preferable to Kveiks.

 

[Bayou Fatma Brewer]

Looking for opinions on an upcoming Altbier I want to brew

Using Brewfather to design

4 gallons into fermenter after all said and done.

33.1 % pils
32.1% Munich
22.1% Vienna because why not?
6.2% caramunich iii
4.1% caramel 10 because I have it on hand and think it’s fun to add a kiss of sweetness
1.4% carafa to drag that stubborn Srm as dark as I wanted it

Probably a single step mash at 150

Might decoct a couple pounds at the end of the mash because I kind of just want to. And it will be tasty.

60 min boil

1oz Hautauer mittenfrau at 60
1 oz tettnag at 10
1oz spalt at flameout

Fermenter with either Voss or Lutra because I’m a rebel and do what I want…. Plus they seem to fit the description of what an alt should do.

I made a pretty good Altbier and used WLP 029 Yeast
Dry Yeast Substitution : Nottingham, BRY-97 American West Coast Ale Yeast (Danstar)

 

[balrog]

Wut the hell...
Ah, now I see: they've updated the linked recipe.
Here's the initial version of it I had saved offline. It's what I was referring to. The recommended yeast is K-97.
"Banana esters and clove" anyway... Disregard the silly esters description, esters will depend of the yeast of your choise.

US-05 fermented cold isn't the worst option BTW. In any case, far preferable to Kveiks.

OOooooo, thx for that. I was planning to stick with my WY1007 favorite anyway.

 

[Jloewe]

Well at least everyone seems to be in agreement the beer looks delicious haha.

It’s still a couple weeks before I brew but I take it I’ll drop the c10 and probably the kviek. Originally the Kviek was intended as a short cut as I went months without brewing until recently I’ve been in a tear. But making small batches and bottling in bombers I’m ripping through stock quickly. However I was thinking of having a marathon weekend to make this recipe and a pumpkin ale on back to back days. Pumpkin would be made with notty even though I’m still working on a grist. So no reason I can’t use notty on both or just go traditional and use Koln or k97.

 

[Protos]

How bitter you plan it to be? If around 40, you'd better leave some 3 to 5% Crystal, you need to counterbalance the bitterness nicely. I'd suggest to reevaluate the Vienna and Munich part: you don't need an overly toasty-biscuity beer, Alt is not as malty as Märzen, the big guys of the modern homebrewing use about 25% of Munich (I don't really know why they do even that, but who am I to argue, I don't want to look overly dismissive).

 

[OakIslandBrewery]

As I mentioned before, a very educational thread. Thanks Protos for your comments and insights!

 

[AlexKay]

Well at least everyone seems to be in agreement the beer looks delicious haha.

It’s still a couple weeks before I brew but I take it I’ll drop the c10 and probably the kviek. Originally the Kviek was intended as a short cut as I went months without brewing until recently I’ve been in a tear. But making small batches and bottling in bombers I’m ripping through stock quickly. However I was thinking of having a marathon weekend to make this recipe and a pumpkin ale on back to back days. Pumpkin would be made with notty even though I’m still working on a grist. So no reason I can’t use notty on both or just go traditional and use Koln or k97.

I've made some great beers with K97, but a fair number have a tart edge that really doesn't work. (Tart Grodziskie? Yech. It is perfect for Gose, though, and I'll never use anything else.) Koln is one of my absolute favorites. I use it for Kolsch (sorry, Kolsch-inspired sessionable clean German-style ales), altbier (Altbier-inspired...), CA Common, American Stout, Grodzikie, IPA ...

 

[Protos]

Tart Grodziskie? Yech

My K-97-fermented Grätzer was awful, I hated the style because of the tartness. With Mangrove M54 I came to like it more, and with Lalbrew Kölsch (and the correct water) I finally loved it. Now, with god-mode Gozdawa OGA-9, I'm ready to kill for Grätzer

 

[Bobby_M]

An alt that I'm currently enjoying, which I specifically modified to track with the more malty, less bitter Northern German that BJCP used to recognized as a separate substyle is below. Yes, it does have caramalt in there but I agree that it could have been left out by increasing the percentage of Munich. Caramunich malts do contribute a faux decoction flavor that fools many judges at least here in the U.S.

I realize I'm piling on at this point because I didn't see this thread earlier, but if you're going to call it an alt, above all else it really needs a German ale yeast. Without it, it won't even be remotely alt-like.