hotbeer
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@Lightning bug -- It seems that you just have to take it with faith that RO water is all perfectly the same and that your RO system works properly.
All "my" homebrew tastes the same!
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lightningbug
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Manipulated… from what pH exactly?
I feel like I’m speaking another language or something. I know about mineral adjustments and water calculators, I don’t need book recommendations or helpful links. My question is simple. How can you adjust the acidity if your water if you dont know the input pH, or if you dont have a pH meter to plunge into your mash and take a reading? If you’re just assuming your RO water is pH 7 I’m pretty sure you’re incorrect. I was under the impression that the RO process lowered pH to sub<7 almost always.
lightningbug
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And home RO as well? It’s all pH 7? Always? You input pH 6 water or pH 8 water and it returns it to 7 every time for every system? Damn that’s amazing. But out of curiosity could you cite the book and section where I can confirm it? That would just be choice, thanks.
Because the pH of the water affects the pH of the mash in an insignificant way. The mash comes with it's own acids that will change the water's pH rapidly. what's more important than the pH of the water itself is the ability of the water to buffer the acids coming from the mash and this buffer is the alkalinity of the water. The aim is to neutralise this alkalinity so that it cannot neutralise the acids from the mash. Proper reverse osmosis water has no alkalinity, so the acid additions are only there to compensate for the lack of acid provided by pale mashes. If you have very dark mashes, you might even need to add alkalinity because there's too much acid coming from the roast. Long story short, water pH does not matter, water alkalinity matters a lot.
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From the Bru’n Water “Water Knowledge” page. Section 2.1– pH
“The pH of the raw water used in brewing has only modest impact on the brewing process. The primary interest to brewing is the pH of the wort during mashing. Factors such as water alkalinity and mash grist composition have greater effect on mashing pH than the starting pH of the raw water.”
Starting water pH is relatively insignificant.
lightningbug
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How do you read or estimate the mash pH without the initial water pH or a pH meter? My initial question.
You know approximately how much acid is coming from which malt or grain, how much brewing salts shift the pH into any direction, how much alkalinity is there, mix it all up and that is basically it. That's what the calculators do.
lightningbug
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So are you saying the pH of the water is totally irrelevant as if it doesnt exist and all that matters is how much your recipe shifts the pH? If that were the case then wouldn’t we be talking about our mash pH as “ X change in pH” and not the “5.2-5.6” that we see everywhere, including in our software?
Yes, that is what about 4-5 people have said now.
lightningbug
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You have a problem with reading comprehension. Nobody has actually answered the question as to how you “adjust” a number you dont know to get mash pH. You in particular posted a book quote that said “the initial water pH doesn’t matter, the mash pH does” and for some reason you take that mean “you don’t even need to know your initial water pH, it doesnt exist” as opposed to “it doesnt matter as long as you adjust it to the correct pH for the mash”.
My quote is not from a book, but rather than lengthy tutorial on brewing water from the Bru’n Water spreadsheet. It’s one of several water calculators that many of us use to make mash and sparge water predictions/ adjustments. It has proven to be very accurate when using either RO or distilled water and an accurate grain bill. The starting pH of distilled and RO water are pre-determined figures in the spreadsheet which are relatively insignificant. I don’t know how you manipulate your brewing water or what tools you use to do so, but it seems that your question might be better answered by some of our resident water experts such as @mabrungard or @Silver_Is_Money .
lightningbug
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You answered it. The question I had from the very beginning. I don’t know why we had two pages of “wtf dude read a book” when all someone had to say was “I dont bother with it because my calculator does it for me and it’s close enough that it doesnt matter”.
BrewnWKopperKat
(Ο_Ο)
@lightningbug , the intent of this reply
was to reinforce a point that there are ways to construct a low cost proven recipe using RO/distilled water that could be used by others for troubleshooting. And those techniques have been in print for around a decade.
As an aside, for those who are still reading here, there's a home brewer (in a different homebrewing forum) who is actively brewing using the water adjustment techniques from Modern Homebrew Recipes (2016) with some of the easier adjustments for reducing oxidation during the brew day. With RO/distilled water, one can include the actual amounts used - and this home brewer does this. So the recipes are both educational and tasty.
And, on the extract+steep side, there's a brewer here who has adjusted their brew day to make a slurry for the late addition of DME. No frantic stirring, no clumps, no scorching.
What's the point?
Well documented, proven, recipes can be used for both troubleshooting and communicating new techniques.
(tentatively).
editz fore typohz.
was to reinforce a point that there are ways to construct a low cost proven recipe using RO/distilled water that could be used by others for troubleshooting. And those techniques have been in print for around a decade.
As an aside, for those who are still reading here, there's a home brewer (in a different homebrewing forum) who is actively brewing using the water adjustment techniques from Modern Homebrew Recipes (2016) with some of the easier adjustments for reducing oxidation during the brew day. With RO/distilled water, one can include the actual amounts used - and this home brewer does this. So the recipes are both educational and tasty.
And, on the extract+steep side, there's a brewer here who has adjusted their brew day to make a slurry for the late addition of DME. No frantic stirring, no clumps, no scorching.
What's the point?
Well documented, proven, recipes can be used for both troubleshooting and communicating new techniques.
(tentatively).editz fore typohz.
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lightningbug
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Is RO really that consistent that you can just trust the calculators? Like I said before, I don’t use RO but I always find my mash pH ends up considerably different from what the calculator in my software estimates. I’ll adjust my profile with mineral additions, but I’ll still use a pH meter during the mash and then and add lactic acid in 1ml increments to bring it to the correct value.@lightningbug , the intent of this reply
was to reinforce a point that there are ways to construct a low cost proven recipe using RO/distilled water that could be used by others for troubleshooting. And those techniques have been in print for around a decade.
As an aside, for those who are still reading here, there's a home brewer (in a different homebrewing forum) who is actively brewing using the water adjustment techniques from Modern Homebrew Recipes (2016) with some of the easier adjustments for reducing oxidation during the brew day. With RO/distilled water, one can include the actual amounts used - and this home brewer does this. So the recipes are both educational and tasty.
And, on the extract+steep side, there's a brewer here who has adjusted their brew day to make a slurry for the late addition of DME. No frantic stirring, no clumps, no scorching.
What's the point?
Well documented, proven, recipes can be used for both troubleshooting and communicating new techniques.
editz fore typohz.
At which temperature are you measuring? At which time? There are huge shifts in time and there are huge shifts at different temperatures so your numbers might be actually all right. Even us home brewers are not sure if to measure pH at mash or at room temperature. 15 minute into the mash seems to be the preferred time window though.
The thing with pH is, it is more complicated than one might think and it is a logarithmic scale. This means that the further you move away from neutral, the more h3o+ or oh- you need to actually move the pH by a certain number.
And also, it is all about buffering capacity. If the pH of the water is 8 (just made something up) but it doesn't have anything to buffer the pH, a small acid addition will heavily impact the pH. If there's a buffer present, much more acid would be necessary to change the pH. So at the end, pH of the water does not matter much, if at all, buffering capacity is what we are looking at.
You asked for sources, then when given them or first hand knowledge, you discount them and get mad.
Your “initial question” was answered… starting water pH is insignificant.
Yes, RO and distilled water are that consistent. It’s because you are concerned with the mineral content (which directly affects mash pH) rather than original pH. That’s why many people use them… you are starting with a clean slate. You probably have to adjust your brewing water because of varying mineral content, not the starting pH which is mostly insignificant.
BrewnWKopperKat
(Ο_Ο)
I use distilled water. I also have a pH meter that I use occasionally to re-confirm the estimates.
People who use RO water often have a TDS meter (I mentioned it back in #28) to confirm the quality of the water. They report similar experiences - you can trust the calculators.
And, FWIW, the water adjustment process in Modern Homebrew Receipes (much like the page I mentioned in #30) doesn't need "water chemistry" software. It's just basic measurements based on style, then "season to taste".
lightningbug
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"First-hand knowledge" is also known as "anecdotal evidence" and is not evidence at all. Neither is "people have done this for decades".
The simple point that everyone was dancing around seen in bold below:
- We all know that mineral additions and mash selection impact the pH of the mash.
- Our brewing software, calculators, and equations use these additions to adjust the pH
- Our software/calculator/equations are taking a pH of ___ and adjusting it to 5.2-5.6
You answered this. At least you tried to, and I do actually appreciate it. Same with some of the others who are actually trying to discuss the topic in the thread.
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But that’s not what they are doing and that’s why I asked some of the “experts” to help explain. The mineral content and buffering ability (alkalinity) of the starting water is what’s important, not necessarily the pH, which is what Miraculix alludes to here —
That’s why it’s recommended by many to use RO/ distilled water (they are generally accepted to have the same values every time) and a calculator to help generate a consistent water profile. If the source water being used has variable mineral content (not pH), you will usually be chasing a moving target.
CaCo3 and HCO3, google it. Then come back, there's the door thanks and good night.
Not weighing in on who said what or who's being unpleasant to whom.
But just to reiterate, I could start with distilled water and use small amounts of HCl or NaOH to adjust the pH between 2 and 12. Regardless of where I chose that pH, though, the mash pH after adding a few kilos of grain will be the same, and it will depend only on the buffering system created by the proteins in the barley.
The same is true of any water where the total mineral content is low (as can be measured by a TDS meter.) The pH can vary -- lower if there's a dissolved CO2, higher if there are small amounts of carbonates -- and it could vary a lot, but that variation won't be consequential once you've started mashing.
So yes, the pH of RO or distilled water could range from 4 to 10, say, but that won't affect the mash pH.
All that said, if you're not using RO, and you have a lot of calcium or carbonates in you water, that can have a huge effect on mash pH. So you either need to know your water composition, or you need to use distilled/RO. A pH measurement of your input water, in and of itself, does not provide useful information.
But just to reiterate, I could start with distilled water and use small amounts of HCl or NaOH to adjust the pH between 2 and 12. Regardless of where I chose that pH, though, the mash pH after adding a few kilos of grain will be the same, and it will depend only on the buffering system created by the proteins in the barley.
The same is true of any water where the total mineral content is low (as can be measured by a TDS meter.) The pH can vary -- lower if there's a dissolved CO2, higher if there are small amounts of carbonates -- and it could vary a lot, but that variation won't be consequential once you've started mashing.
So yes, the pH of RO or distilled water could range from 4 to 10, say, but that won't affect the mash pH.
All that said, if you're not using RO, and you have a lot of calcium or carbonates in you water, that can have a huge effect on mash pH. So you either need to know your water composition, or you need to use distilled/RO. A pH measurement of your input water, in and of itself, does not provide useful information.
That’s kind of where I was headed, but you beat me to it as I was typing.
Let’s approach this from a different angle…
If you browse through all the “Got my water report today, how’s it look?” in the “Brew Science” forum and pay close attention to the pH values compared to the other mineral values, you will see that source water pH isn’t the primary value used for mash water calculators. Many of those posts will have pH values that are equal or within a point or 2 of each other, but wildly different values for the other numbers.
You can enter a water with a pH of 7.6 (theoretical) and I can enter a water with a pH of 7.6 (theoretical), but have completely different numbers for all of our other values. The calculators are concerned with all of the other numbers that are different therefore, starting water pH doesn’t matter. They simply aren’t taking a water with pH “X” and changing it to a water with pH “Y” because there are too many other variables to get to “Y”.
Edit: grammar correction
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hout17
Crush it REAL Good
You folks are doing a great service. I lost my cool earlier. I don't think your approach will matter unfortunately but I wish you well.
Smells like effing LODO in here. Keep in mind, folks, this is the Beginners Beer Brewing Forum. Anyone seen the OP lately?!
hotbeer
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@lightningbug another part of the thinking might be that RO water is generally going to be almost like distilled water with almost no minerals and more to the point no buffering capacity for pH.
However I too would think before starting to add stuff to water, you'd want to double check a few things that can easily be checked first. But maybe when a person has been doing this for a while, they realize it just doesn't make that much difference to know. Because just about anything will swing the pH of demineralized water in significant amounts till a certain amount of stuff gets put in it to act as buffers.
I don't mess with the chemicals yet. The water I use seems to be right on target at 5.4 pH and when my sparging is almost done, I'm still at 5.4 pH for wort and running's.
However I too would think before starting to add stuff to water, you'd want to double check a few things that can easily be checked first. But maybe when a person has been doing this for a while, they realize it just doesn't make that much difference to know. Because just about anything will swing the pH of demineralized water in significant amounts till a certain amount of stuff gets put in it to act as buffers.
I don't mess with the chemicals yet. The water I use seems to be right on target at 5.4 pH and when my sparging is almost done, I'm still at 5.4 pH for wort and running's.
I was thinking the same thing. The Op only provided a few tidbits of info, all the while there are plenty of people willing to help, or perhaps “boil the ocean” in an effort to assist.
If this site had a chat box module, it would be impossible to keep up.
mashpaddled
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Tough to say in one brewer's case why the beers all taste the same. There's not one single reason. It could be that you buy old kits that are just too long in the tooth. It could be water, yeast health, oxidation, etc.
As far as why pro brewers don't suffer this issue well I would say you can find plenty of craft brewers who suffer these same problems. They usually go out of business in time if they can't get their beer quality up to par but you can always find somebody out there pumping out a lineup of less than ideal beers. You don't see it as often for various reasons. Experienced, trained brewers using high end equipment, fresh ingredients, low oxidation systems and a lot of QC testing to make the same beers over and over tends to help out a lot.
As far as why pro brewers don't suffer this issue well I would say you can find plenty of craft brewers who suffer these same problems. They usually go out of business in time if they can't get their beer quality up to par but you can always find somebody out there pumping out a lineup of less than ideal beers. You don't see it as often for various reasons. Experienced, trained brewers using high end equipment, fresh ingredients, low oxidation systems and a lot of QC testing to make the same beers over and over tends to help out a lot.
Zambezi Special
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The OP may not be there, but I got some valuable knowledge out of this thread
He's long gone at this point, and after reading through the last half of replies, I can't say I blame him. Fun times.
I started mashing 40 years ago. Rested for a few years then got back with extract recipe kit beers. Cerveza, Ales, Wheat ect, all tasted different & pretty good actually. Recently i got back into researching different Porter recipes, non kit just threw the ingredients together and brewed from expierence. Made 3 Porters this year and all tasted of different notes and body or head retention or mouthfeel. ALL brews tasting the same as this thread mentioned is sort of a mystery to me. However, on this HBT site you have many SERIOUSLY talented brewers that can definetly help you fix your dilemma. As for me I have no answers. I just made a Kentucky "Common" brew yesterday buy finding different recipes and methods through research. (Get this) I used 3# flaked Corn & 3# Flaked Rye in a 5 gal batch.I guarantee this brew will not taste the same of anything i ever made. Im hopeful it turns out tasty but i wont know for at least 1 month. Far longer fermentation or resting then called for. Anyway, listen to what the Beer dudes are saying. They are correct. Just saying
