All grains wonderful, extract is undrinkable

[monsteroyd]

Yooper nailed it. He isn't doing extract or campden correctly. I do this all the time and have great beer. 1 lb of extract (liquid or dry) to 1 gallon of water with 1/20 (yes one-twentieth) tablet of campden per gallon of water. Do the hop boil with that. At flame out remove from heat and stir in the rest of the extract while the wort is above 140F. Cool the wort, top off with water and pitch yeast.

First you are adding all the extract raising the gravity to the roof, the hop boil is not going to be very effective, If you use brewing software, it would show that the gravity is so high that you are maybe getting half the IBU out of the hops. So the extract is not going to have enough bitter to balance the malt sweet. Then you've got so much campden that it has to kill some of the yeast, so you are also probably way under-pitching (are you using dry or liquid?) that is a prescription for off-flavors. Add the sulfite overload and I am not surprised the extract is bad but your AG is good. You are probably under pitching even in the AG because of the high campden concentration (you know they use this stuff to kill yeast right?) but you may have enough hop utilization to hide or fix it. I bet your AG has off flavors too, but you can't taste them as well in a bitter balanced beer.

Monty

 

[mrduna01]

I realize I have been adding the extract at the wrong times per conventional wisdom (not the first time kits have instructed poorly) but everytging I've read regarding campden is that the dose for a 20 gallon batch should not create any problems in a 5 g batch most notably Palmer. Live and learn I guess. Ill be trying out all this advice in the next few weeks.

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[Croyzen]

I did an NB extract kit that used LME only. I used gallon jugs of spring water from the store. Aged for a month before bottling. Left in bottles for about 6 weeks and then dumped. Thin mouthfeel. Off flavor that I would describe as more dominant when burping and when taking a good smell. The next two brews were partial mash kits both using LME. Both of these had the same off chemical smell/aftertaste but to a lesser extent. My last partial mash I switched to using my own water/filtered. When I switched to all grain the problem went away. I personally believe it's infinitely harder to make a great batch of beer using extracts. However, I will go back and brew with extract again to see if I can do it. Things I would do now. 1. No LME 2. Full boils 3. No spring water and/or water I know nothing about. 4. Use late extract additions in the recipe.

I was going to give up on brewing until I did some all grain batches. Before that I figured all homebrew tasted like "homebrew." My brewing experience has been extract = worst, partial mash = decent, all grain = finally seeing the potential of what homebrew can be.

Brewing a fantastic batch of all grain should be expected. Brewing a fantastic batch of extract should be respected!

 

[mrduna01]

I did an NB extract kit that used LME only. I used gallon jugs of spring water from the store. Aged for a month before bottling. Left in bottles for about 6 weeks and then dumped. Thin mouthfeel. Off flavor that I would describe as more dominant when burping and when taking a good smell. The next two brews were partial mash kits both using LME. Both of these had the same off chemical smell/aftertaste but to a lesser extent. My last partial mash I switched to using my own water/filtered. When I switched to all grain the problem went away. I personally believe it's infinitely harder to make a great batch of beer using extracts. However, I will go back and brew with extract again to see if I can do it. Things I would do now. 1. No LME 2. Full boils 3. No spring water and/or water I know nothing about. 4. Use late extract additions in the recipe.

I was going to give up on brewing until I did some all grain batches. Before that I figured all homebrew tasted like "homebrew." My brewing experience has been extract = worst, partial mash = decent, all grain = finally seeing the potential of what homebrew can be.

Brewing a fantastic batch of all grain should be expected. Brewing a fantastic batch of extract should be respected!

I respect your comments but for me I feel regardless of my all grain success, if I can't master an extract brew then I have a long way to go and need to get back to basics. Ill continue to try and drill down where im going wrong with extract... can only make my all grain better.

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[IvanBrew]

I enjoy all-grain brewing because is satisfies the engineer in me. I get to feel all "mad scientist" on brew day, and I love playing around with and planning equipment.

I'm very happy with my beers, as are those I share them with. That said, I have had phenomenal extract beers brewed by others, and many gold medal winners are extract brews. In fact, back when "Designing Great Beers" was written, the author found that not just 'many' but 'most' gold medal winners were extract recipes...

For certain, all-grain is not a necessity for brewing great beers. It's just a matter of figuring out what's causing the struggles and fixing them.

 

[Croyzen]

I've wondered what is mastering an extract brew? It's been said on here before that many who move to all grain also use better techniques, full boils, yeast starters/hydration, pay more attention to water, fermentation temperatures, etc. I fall in that category myself. My next extract attempt will use these ideas and the recipe will have interesting steeping grain and yeast character. I will also steer clear of LME just as an experiment for myself.

 

[Weezy]

I always suspect that what people perceive as 'extract twang' is due to excess minerals from people using tap water, with all its minerals, on top of the minerals already present in the extract.

 

[IslandLizard]

No, steeping at 150-160 for 20-30 minutes is actually the preferred method for steeping (although putting the grains in cold water won't hurt).

Squeezing the bag won't extract tannins, either- that's an old wives tale.

If your steeping water has high alkalinity AND a high pH, tannins can get extracted. And more noticeably the darker the roasts, and higher quantities of them. Hence it is more pronounced in darker beers.

Although darker roasts add more acidity to your water, high water alkalinity buffers that away, more so if you have 3+ gallons vs 1 gallon. Do you know your alkalinity and pH? Did you look up a water report for your water source?

Now if you have high alkalinity you would notice that in your all-grain too. Do you add acid to your all grain brewing water?

 

[mrduna01]

If your steeping water has high alkalinity AND a high pH, tannins can get extracted. And more noticeably the darker the roasts, and higher quantities of them. Hence it is more pronounced in darker beers.

Although darker roasts add more acidity to your water, high water alkalinity buffers that away, more so if you have 3+ gallons vs 1 gallon. Do you know your alkalinity and pH? Did you look up a water report for your water source?

Now if you have high alkalinity you would notice that in your all-grain too. Do you add acid to your all grain brewing water?

I posted my water report earlier in the thread but am not sure how to read it to answer your questions specifically.

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[PGEduardo]

I make excellent beer from extract kits on city water with no water treatment.

I can't get past the fact that you admittedly can't even slightly describe the off-flavor. Perhaps find an experienced beer 'taster' and have them give feedback? For all we know the kits taste as designed and you just don't like them...

 

[IvanBrew]

I posted my water report earlier in the thread but am not sure how to read it to answer your questions specifically.

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The link to the full water report is here:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f37/al...ct-undrinkable-460681/index3.html#post5922560

To save time:
pH 8.2, Alkalinity 73, Sulfate 74, Chloride 38, Sodium 33, Calcium 48, and Magnesium 7

It's not "soft" water, but it's also pretty decent. An argument could be made for cutting it 50/50 with RO, but then you'd want to supplement it with CaCl (at a minimum, depending on style) for all-grain brewing.

@mrduna01, there's a really good, really easy to read (non-science-geek) post on basic water chem here: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/brewing-water-chemistry-primer-198460/

In the end, though, I totally agree that Yooper nailed it. The water chem stuff can do nothing but help improve, but it's not your core issue.

 

[bajaedition]

My first response would be to try another brand of Extract

I also do both all grain and some extract brews, depends on the recipe, I really do not bother with an all grain if the recipe is for a simple blonde ale with a single step infusion. And I have the same results either way as besides the mash I am using the same techniques so It occurs to me that you need to see what is the difference, and the extract is the major difference.

difference between us is my water here is so hard we use a jack hammer on it before we drink it so it goes down easy.

good luck

 

[bajaedition]

I've wondered what is mastering an extract brew? It's been said on here before that many who move to all grain also use better techniques, full boils, yeast starters/hydration, pay more attention to water, fermentation temperatures, etc. I fall in that category myself. My next extract attempt will use these ideas and the recipe will have interesting steeping grain and yeast character. I will also steer clear of LME just as an experiment for myself.

mastering an extract brew is something you need to learn to do
a lot of guys enter contest and win big time with extract brews because they have mastered the techniques needed, and that does translate through to your all grain brewing.
Because most guys consider extract brewing a beginners way to brew they think they soon have to get beyond it, however many of the things you try to do in all grain brewing you are also doing in extract brewing.
you have to admit how you get your sugars is a small part of brewing, and the use of specialty grains is a large part of brewing. Well you use them in both all grain and extract brewing.
While it can be said that you have control over body and mouthfeel in all grain brewing, it can also be said you have that control in extract brewing, albeit sometimes in different ways.
Many a technique developed in extract brewing are used in all grain and some techniques are individual to the method, but mastering a extract brew will make you a better all grain brewer. as much as mastering all grain will make you a better extract brewer. I would really like to set 2 beers in front of you h=and have you tell me which is which.

 

[IslandLizard]

I posted my water report earlier in the thread but am not sure how to read it to answer your questions specifically.

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I did read the whole thread, but somehow missed that. :smack:

[...] To save time:
pH 8.2, Alkalinity 73, Sulfate 74, Chloride 38, Sodium 33, Calcium 48, and Magnesium 7

It's not "soft" water, but it's also pretty decent. An argument could be made for cutting it 50/50 with RO, but then you'd want to supplement it with CaCl (at a minimum, depending on style) for all-grain brewing.

[...]

In the end, though, I totally agree that Yooper nailed it. The water chem stuff can do nothing but help improve, but it's not your core issue.

That doesn't look bad at all, not super soft but can be used as is or manageable if you want to tweak it. The hardness of 155 should work fine, Ca is good in brewing water. I agree with Yooper and IvanBrew, your water minerals don't point to the problem.

Do you have a brewclub or some other brewers you can compare your beer with? Tasting some other brewers' beer and, in your case, particularly extract ones can be very educational.

Changing the brand of extract was mentioned. What do you use? Maybe the extracts are old and stale or stored improperly. Try from a different source, where you know it's fresh.

You don't happen to have a piece of iron hanging in your boil kettle by accident, like a hose clamp that's not all SS, or a piece of steel wire or screen?

Although it was already mentioned, I just want to emphasize, scorched extract will ruin your beer. It happens on the bottom and fast, and will not leave much of a visual clue, except a slightly darker wort, which is hard to detect. But the bad taste is undeniable, all the way down to ashtray aromatics.

 

[ballsy]

NB has good quality ingredients....no way that is the source. I agree with Yooper, all my full extracts (partial boils) have turned out good (Deadringer Ale was the best) and that was even prior to treating my water with campden tablets....and we have pretty high levels of chlorine and cloramine here...But I have always followed the rule of A) never following the generic instructions on the kits sheets and B) Keeping to the 1lb extract/Gal H20 in boil (usually 3) and have never had off flavors...ironically the only beers that I was never happy with were the PM ones I was doing.

 

[Croyzen]

mastering an extract brew is something you need to learn to do
a lot of guys enter contest and win big time with extract brews because they have mastered the techniques needed, and that does translate through to your all grain brewing.
Because most guys consider extract brewing a beginners way to brew they think they soon have to get beyond it, however many of the things you try to do in all grain brewing you are also doing in extract brewing.
you have to admit how you get your sugars is a small part of brewing, and the use of specialty grains is a large part of brewing. Well you use them in both all grain and extract brewing.
While it can be said that you have control over body and mouthfeel in all grain brewing, it can also be said you have that control in extract brewing, albeit sometimes in different ways.
Many a technique developed in extract brewing are used in all grain and some techniques are individual to the method, but mastering a extract brew will make you a better all grain brewer. as much as mastering all grain will make you a better extract brewer. I would really like to set 2 beers in front of you h=and have you tell me which is which.

My experience has been that it's been MUCH more difficult for me personally to produce a great batch of extract beer. What I noticed was that the more grains I used the better the beer turned out. Extract with steeping grains, thin mouthfeel, odd aromas when smelling just after the pour, etc. Partial mash brews tasted much better. I noticed a major bump in quality when I dumped beer kits and purchased my ingredients/extract locally using fresh LME/DME. Everything had that "homebrew" taste until I switched to all grain. When I did all grain I wasn't expecting miracles but there was a major difference in the quality of what I was making. Since doing partial mashes bumped the brew day time up to all grain time anyway, I just dropped the extract.

The only reason I would brew with extract now is to save time and have an easy brew day. Anything beyond extract with steeping grains changes the brew day. I have plans to do the milk stout DME recipe in the recipe section here. Like the OP I would like to produce a great (not good) batch of extract.

I'd like to take that 2 beer challenge!

 

[bajaedition]

My experience has been that it's been MUCH more difficult for me personally to produce a great batch of extract beer. What I noticed was that the more grains I used the better the beer turned out. Extract with steeping grains, thin mouthfeel, odd aromas when smelling just after the pour, etc. Partial mash brews tasted much better. I noticed a major bump in quality when I dumped beer kits and purchased my ingredients/extract locally using fresh LME/DME. Everything had that "homebrew" taste until I switched to all grain. When I did all grain I wasn't expecting miracles but there was a major difference in the quality of what I was making. Since doing partial mashes bumped the brew day time up to all grain time anyway, I just dropped the extract.

The only reason I would brew with extract now is to save time and have an easy brew day. Anything beyond extract with steeping grains changes the brew day. I have plans to do the milk stout DME recipe in the recipe section here. Like the OP I would like to produce a great (not good) batch of extract.

I'd like to take that 2 beer challenge!

you know, beer kits do seem to be just that
my extract brews are from recipe and not in kit form, that way I guess I have more control over them than buying a extract in a can kit, or a kit packaged on this date and not sold till that date.
And that could be the problem to the OP
however I think there are secrets and tricks to both that do not swap back and forth. but mostly they are the same.
As I said earlier, if it is going be a basic recipe with a single step infusion, I just get some LME in the amount I need. I will skip the entire mash time if all I am doing is a simple sugar conversion and I do not seem to get any off flavors or loss of quality. Maybe because I have done so many extract brews, even after I started to All Grain.