All Grain & Extract brewers competing against each other?

[cryhav0c]

With all these competitions popping up everywhere shouldn't All Grain & Extract brewers be competing individually instead of against each other?

What is everyone's thoughts regarding this?

 

[evrose]

Good beer is good beer, no matter the method.

Segregation of methods opens the door to all sorts of nuances that would make competitions a mess. What about partial mashes? BIAB? Partial mash BIAB?

Judge based on output, not method of getting there.

Having said that, I have zero interest in ever entering a contest... so my opinion counts for slightly less than nothing.

 

[beergolf]

Good beer is good beer, no matter the method.

Agreed. I have tasted some fantastic extract brews and some horrible All Grain brews. All grain is not a guarantee that the beer will be better. It all depends on the brewer. All grain does off some nuances that are not possible with extract but for some styles very good brews can be made with extract.

Also where would you classify partial mash?

 

[nicklepickles]

Good beer is good beer, no matter the method.

Segregation of methods opens the door to all sorts of nuances that would make competitions a mess. What about partial mashes? BIAB? Partial mash BIAB?

Judge based on output, not method of getting there.

Having said that, I have zero interest in ever entering a contest... so my opinion counts for slightly less than nothing.

I totally agree with you there. Its not the method, its the skill thats important. I, like many others (i think), started with extract, went on to AG, then back to extract, and my beers have only gotten better and better.

 

[cryhav0c]

So we are to advocate renaming brew kits and entering them in a contest? I'd like to determine, beyond the final product being beer, how the various methods can possibly compare.

All Grain - you learn and study a great many details, develop recipes based upon BJCP style guidelines in hopes of producing, what you hope to be, a contest worthy homebrew.

The other, you open a box of preselected ingredients prepare the product as per instructions and submit it and quite probably be judged against someone else doing the same thing. Where is the recipe development & preparation.

I don't see how these can possibly compare. The playing field seems uneven.

 

[ong]

Extract doesn't mean you just brew kits. You can come up with all kinds of crazy recipes as an extract brewer. You're just not mashing your own base grain. I love brewing all grain, but I did a dozen extract batches first, and only the first couple were "kits."

 

[cryhav0c]

Now that's a good point. Should we differentiate then. Should "brew kits" entries be prohibited?

 

[beergolf]

Just because someone brews extract does not mean they are using kits. There are many ways to make beer. When I first started and was doing extract I made many of my own recipes that were extract recipes with steeping grains.

There are many award winning brews that use extract.

 

[Yooper]

I don't see how these can possibly compare. The playing field seems uneven.

I guess I can understand how you can come to that conclusion. But I"m a certified BJCP judge. I've had wonderful extract beers win/place in competition- and of course we didn't know they were extract beers as the judges have no way of knowing that. I've had some really awful AG beers.

It's not like an extract batch (or partial mash) is a can of spaghettio's entered in an Italian recipe contest. There is much more to it than that!

Think of it this way- the only thing an extract brewer is doing is using the extract instead of two-row. That's it. Sure, he/she skips the mashing process, but temperature control, fresh ingredients, yeast pitching rate, water quality, etc are the most important part anyway.

I sort of think of extract brewing (assuming some specialty grains) as making spaghetti sauce out of canned tomatoes and sauce, but adding spices and other ingredients to make the sauce. I've had some of the best spaghetti sauces made this way.

For AG, the process would be the same, except a guy starts with a bushel of tomatoes. I"ve done this, by the way! It could be much better, but much more could go wrong and it could be worse. I've made great sauce this way, but it takes more equipment (to peel the tomatoes and things) and more time.

The real contest, then, is the flavor. I mean, when I go to a restaurant I don't really care if the spaghetti sauce was made the old fashioned (canned) way if you're my grandma, or from a bushel of tomatoes. I care about the taste.

The same is true of brewing. I"ve had bad beers of all sorts over the years- even in commercial brewpubs. I'd rather have a great beer, no matter how the brewer got there, than all of those bad ones.

It really takes great skill to make a kick-ass extract brew, so I'd give kudos to that brewer.

The first HBT competition we had, a partial mash beer won the BOS (or was it the second BOS?). Anyway, he won kegging gear, beating out over 300 other entries. I'd say the pool of beers we submitted (me included) were pretty darn good, so if he beat my AG beer, then that's awesome.

 

[Billy-Klubb]

Now that's a good point. Should we differentiate then. Should "brew kits" entries be prohibited?

no. because every individual brewer will brew & ferment the kit differently. there are many variables that contribute to flavor. no matter if it's an extract kit, BIAB kit, or AG kit.

 

[Cyclman]

Beer competitions aren't primarily or just about recipes, they are about the brewer's skill in execution.

A great recipe or kit brewed by an unskilled brewer may taste terrible.

A great brewer can make a simple recipe taste wonderful.

 

[Zamial]

If I gave 10 different homebrewers a complete recipe kit and had them brew it to the directions/recipe, you would end up with 10 different beers. I do not see the issue here...

 

[cryhav0c]

Well made points. Doesn't that still leave open the possibility of 'getting lucky' against more advanced & capable brewers with minimal effort, comprehention & knowledge?

Also, im curious why nobodys standing up for the AG folks? Are their numbers dwindling due to the additional effort required?

Another quick question. Does a BJCP Judge review the individual submissions submitted recipe when judging or only the style guideline?

 

[Zamial]

Well made points. Doesn't that still leave open the possibility of 'getting lucky' against more advanced & capable brewers with minimal effort, comprehention & knowledge?

Any beer can win on any given day. I believe that most BOS winners do "get lucky", how they brewed really does not come into play.

Also, im curious why nobodys standing up for the AG folks? Are their numbers dwindling due to the additional effort required?

I am an all grain home brewer and a pro brewer. I was unaware that I needed defending...

Another quick question. Does a BJCP Judge review the individual submissions submitted recipe when judging or only the style guideline?

If the recipe is supplied I would look it over but I WILL have my style guidelines in front of me. This is a beer comp not a beer recipe comp so I would only look at it with suggestions/comments to make the beer recipe (and the beer) more to style.

 

[Yooper]

I've never seen a recipe, nor a label of any kind when judging in any competitions so far (including the NHC).

I have no idea of the ingredients of the beer in front of me, except for my pretty well-trained palate and I have the BJCP style guidelines in front of me. The beer that bests matches those guidelines, without flaws, will win the flight. No doubt.

Interestingly enough (at least to me), Zamial is participating in this thread. We bumped into each other in Madison at a beer fest a few months back, and we sampled beers together. He works as a pro brewer, and is a homebrewer. I bet that I could put before him three beers, one extract, one PM, and one all-grain. If they were well-made beers, with scores in the high 30s/low 40s, I doubt he could pick out which was made with which technique.

Not that Zamial has poor taste- not at all!!!! But a well made beer is a well made beer. You can't taste "extract" in a well made PM or extract beer.

 

[Zamial]

Not that Zamial has poor taste- not at all!!!! But a well made beer is a well made beer. You can't taste "extract" in a well made PM or extract beer.

Extractly.

 

[krackin]

I must respectfully disagree. Extract has a more 'processed' flavor to it. There is also a difference in LME and DME. I will admit, the difference I perceive maybe solely on my own lack of brewing expertise. I do not have much to compare to except commercial or crafts which I do not care for much naturally. Otherwise I would not brew my own.

 

[evrose]

So we are to advocate renaming brew kits and entering them in a contest? I'd like to determine, beyond the final product being beer, how the various methods can possibly compare.

All Grain - you learn and study a great many details, develop recipes based upon BJCP style guidelines in hopes of producing, what you hope to be, a contest worthy homebrew.

The other, you open a box of preselected ingredients prepare the product as per instructions and submit it and quite probably be judged against someone else doing the same thing. Where is the recipe development & preparation.

I don't see how these can possibly compare. The playing field seems uneven.

You do realize that there are all-grain recipe kits, right? And conversely, that brewing extract doesn't mean you used a kit...

Making good (or great) beer is so much more complicated than simply being handed a box of ingredients.

You could give 100 brewers the exact same kit, with instructions to brew it according to the recipe TO THE LETTER, and you would end up with some very different beers.

Recipe formulation can certainly be a part of making good beer - but IMHO, it accounts for about 5% of the value of the end product. There's a reason many pro brewers, give out their recipes on their websites - because they know that simple knowledge of the ingredients doesn't mean it's possible for others to replicate it, at least not to the same level.

Remember also, brewers make wort - yeast make beer (which takes this conversation in to a different direction, but still...)

 

[cryhav0c]

Personally i wouldnt think any judge could differentiate between methods by merely tasting. That would be difficult indeed.

Zamial, let me repose the question. Why are the extract brewers & their supporters so 'loud' on this topic & the AG people so quite. It's nothing personal, just an observation.

This thread was started to explore thoughts on brewing methods being lumped together for judging. As indicated by the contributing judges, the recipe isn't examined as part of the judging process. That is interesting. The judges are only interested in final product & its conformity to style guidelines & not method of arrival at that point.

Very interesting.

 

[Zamial]

Zamial, let me repose the question. Why are the extract brewers & their supporters so 'loud' on this topic & the AG people so quite. It's nothing personal, just an observation.

Because AG does not = better beer. AG = more control over processes. If you do not have the knowledge of what you are trying to control or the ability to do so accurately there is no real reason other than cost to move to AG (if you do not count your time, that is a completely different dead horse.). This topic often comes across as AG elitisim and is a pretty common topic here on HBT. How would you feel if you were a newer brewer that was all psyched up to enter a great Extract brew kit beer they made just to read posts like this?

It is not "harder" to make a AG batch it just takes more time. I can promise you I can make an extract batch and an AG batch of the same beer and no one would be able to tell the difference. The only difference is brew day length vs. ingredient cost.

 

[Bobby_M]

If one cannot successfully determine which beers were brewed in which way simply by blind tasting, the merits of segregated competition are irrelevant.

 

[Billy-Klubb]

let me repose the question. Why are the extract brewers & their supporters so 'loud' on this topic & the AG people so quite. It's nothing personal, just an observation.

I am an AG brewer. I was an extract user for 13 years. here's my thought on extract vs. AG: beer. that's it. and hopefully good-great beer at that. whether it's kits or not, extract-AG and anything in between, or just add yeast or start from scratch... beer.

 

[Braufessor]

I brew all-grain and I enter comps pretty regularly over the past couple years. I do not think it makes any sense to separate all-grain from extract for many reasons.

Some have been mentioned - "all grain" and "extract" have absolutely no bearing on "quality." there is no inherent advantage one has over the other.

Neither one signifies "kit" beer - both come in kits. Both could be from recipes that were "formulated."

As to the notion that all grain brewers "research and formulate" all their recipes - no they don't. We get our recipes like everyone else. We look them up on the internet, find them in books, get them from friends, see them in magazines, buy all grain kits, look up kit recipes.....etc. The idea that everyone could "formulate" their own recipe for every beer is crazy. The VERY simple fact is this - there are only a few ways to make a pilsner. If you have found a "new" way to make one - you are probably doing it wrong. Same with all the other styles. They are "styles" because you make them a certain way. The ingredients have little to do with it. Water, process, fermentation, oxygen, starters, sanitation, etc. are what set beers apart from one another in competitions. Recipes are a dime a dozen.

Also - one thing that most comps already struggle with is finding a lot of experienced judges. Pretty sure the last thing they would want to do is find a whole other set of judges for "extract" or "kit" beers.

I think the only real difference between the two beers is that "usually" all grain is brewed by experienced brewers vs. extract being more common with beginners who are just starting. I have not brewed extract in a long time, but I have thought about it for the simple fact that I am curious how much better I could make an extract beer today than I could 15 years ago.

I just do not see any purpose or benefit to separating the two into different groups.

 

[cryhav0c]

Zamial, The same thing can be said for extract. You're saying that if you are not familiar with the intracies of advanced brewing techniques typically associated with AG brewing then extract is a viable alternative in order to remain competitive or compete at all.

Quality isnt an issue either as im sure its more than proven that a superior beer can be produced regardless of method.

This thread also is not intended to be a foray into which method is better or best.

This is an iquiry into wether the various techniques should be judged together or seperately so i wont bother to address the remainder of your comments due to revalency.

 

[krackin]

Let me pose this overly simplistic query. Supposing there is no difference in the finished product, why do we even bother with the more complicated method to arrive at the same end? Seems to me that pretty much sums it up.

 

[Braufessor]

Let me pose this overly simplistic query. Supposing there is no difference in the finished product, why do we even bother with the more complicated method to arrive at the same end? Seems to me that pretty much sums it up.

For the same reason we go fishing to catch fish, and grow a garden to get vegetables. We enjoy it.

 

[cryhav0c]

Let me pose this overly simplistic query. Supposing there is no difference in the finished product, why do we even bother with the more complicated method to arrive at the same end? Seems to me that pretty much sums it up.

Provocative. Very good thought!

 

[Billy-Klubb]

For the same reason we go fishing to catch fish, and grow a garden to get vegetables. We enjoy it.

this right here. I mean hell, we can all just got to the store & buy great beer. but where's the fun & personal touches of craft & art in that?

 

[krackin]

For the same reason we go fishing to catch fish, and grow a garden to get vegetables. We enjoy it.

Because we can so we shall. Very good.

 

[Yooper]

Let me pose this overly simplistic query. Supposing there is no difference in the finished product, why do we even bother with the more complicated method to arrive at the same end? Seems to me that pretty much sums it up.

For the same reason we go fishing to catch fish, and grow a garden to get vegetables. We enjoy it.

We could all drive to a convenience store and buy beer, as well.

The other thing about AG, and my sole purpose for going to it from PM is that grain is just a lot cheaper than extract.

Think of extract like a convenience item- it costs more, but saves time. Like a premade Boboli pizza crust. You still make your own pizza, with your own toppings (specialty grains) but it's faster than starting from scratch.

I can buy 50 pounds of base grain for $37ish. That equals 37.5 pounds LME or 30 pounds of DME, in fermentables.

The last time I bought DME, it was $12 for 3 pounds. So, that's be $120 for the same amount of fermentables in $37 worth of grain! That's a huge incentive right there for me to use grain, and not extract, in my beers.

I made good beer before I did AG brewing. I didn't even really plan to stop doing partial mashes, but the cost really did matter to me.