All-grain Curious

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Wait... how did this turn into a BIAB thread? I was going to respond to OP, but I’m afraid at this point my comments would be off topic (I don’t biab).

OP mentioned that ...

I am now curious about moving to all-grain brewing.

... and there's more all-grain brewing than BIAB.

Personally, I'm looking forward to your response.

 

[passedpawn]

OP mentioned that ...

OP did NOT ask about BIAB. ?

BIAB might very well be the best path for new brewers. I really don't know. But I worry when I see enthusiasts recommend (what I think is) a non-traditional method of brewing in the beginner's forums.

 

[doug293cz]

OP will have plenty of time to delve into traditional methods after they get some idea of what all grain is about, if they so wish.

Brew on

 

[Golddiggie]

IME, BIAB was the path of least resistance to get INTO all grain brewing. Didn't take long to progress through other methods/hardware setups until I landed where I am now.

IMO, if you're short on capital, then give it a shot. Or if you're not 100% sure you want to go down the all grain path, it's a decent way to start. I don't even remember how many batches I did as BIAB, but I know it wasn't that many.

While I like my current 3 vessel on a single tier brew stand (propane fired) I'm already looking towards getting a larger setup that's electric next year (if things go to plan). Yes, I'll be dropping more money on the electric system. Not just the system, but all the other things that need to happen along with that. Electrical connections made (or drops added where needed), venting hood for the steam, etc. It all ads up. But, as has been pointed out in other [recent] threads, I didn't really get into brewing to make cheap beer. I got into brewing to make great beer without spending a crap ton per batch. It's economical when you look at it with the ingredient costs per batch. I don't count hardware/equipment costs in that number since it changes with every batch you brew.

 

[fendersrule]

OP will have plenty of time to delve into traditional methods after they get some idea of what all grain is about, if they so wish.

Brew on

I have been apart of this forum for a few years, and I have never before seen such a rife between BIAB and 3V brewerers. I seriously challenge anyone to prove me wrong that the quality is any different between either system. I can tell you from experience it is not. I go to monthly meetings and try beers that are made from extract, BIAB, electric, and 3V. All methods make great beer, and all three methods can make crap beer! It's the skill of the brewer that is utmost importance.

Traditional brewing at one point meant using hot coals and wild yeast. Fermentation wasn't theoretically explained until modern history.

Why does it have to be "traditional" for it to be good. That's just false logic.

 

[passedpawn]

I have been apart of this forum for a few years, and I have never before seen such a rife between BIAB and 3V brewerers. I seriously challenge anyone to prove me wrong that the quality is any different between either system. I can tell you from experience it is not. I go to monthly meetings and try beers that are made from extract, BIAB, electric, and 3V. All methods make great beer, and all three methods can make crap beer! It's the skill of the brewer that is utmost importance.

Traditional brewing at one point meant using hot coals and wild yeast. Fermentation wasn't theoretically explained until modern history.

Why does it have to be "traditional" for it to be good. That's just false logic.

Nobody said that BIAB doesn't make good beer. You're creating a strawman here.

 

[fendersrule]

Nobody said that BIAB doesn't make good beer. You're creating a strawman here.

Easy to claim that after the posts that said exactly what you said didn't happen were deleted.

Other posts since still claim, indirectly, that BIAB is only a progression into the "real thing" or "the better thing." I disagree.

 

[camonick]

I’ll jump into this snake pit. I brewed 5 gallon extract batches for over 15 years. I started with a 3 gallon kettle on the stovetop, then moved to an 8 gallon full volume boil with propane. I got to a point where I wanted more control over my brews, especially color and flavor for certain styles. I helped my brother several times on his 3V system and I found it bulky, confusing and intimidating. After researching the BIAB method, I decided it was worth a try and would only require minimal equipment additions (mesh bag from Wilserbrewer and a Cereal Killer mill) to get me on my way. It was the best decision I’ve ever made and I’ve never looked back. I eventually added a 13 gallon kettle.
I find some of the above statements laughable as well as insulting regarding the BIAB process. I routinely get a mash efficiency in the high 80% range with a full volume mash and no sparge. Those efficiencies also allow me to actually use less grain. I also have numerous beer trades with other members on the forum who tell me many of my beers are some very good examples of style. If the process is done correctly, the end result is no different than other methods. The most important thing to remember is the way wort is collected—BIAB removes the grain from the wort and 3V systems remove the wort from the grain... after that, everything else is the same.
So long story short, to the OP, I think considering BIAB as an introduction into all grain brewing is a very easy transition.
Sláinte

 

[fendersrule]

Truth.

We all started from extract. Damn is that $hit expensive and limiting. I only brewed twice with extract before I was like, "nope, this is not sustainable!" It costed so much to brew a single batch of beer!

But I will never, ever, down a beer because of a method/process, unless the beer had flaws that the brewer could have solved. I don't care how it was made...flaws are flaws and they can be solved regardless of methods.

Brewing is all about bettering your skill. It's like a martial art. There's always better. 3V is not "better" than BIAB. BIAB accomplishes 3V in less material, time, and space. An electric "all in one" basket setup IS a BIAB system! It's the same damn thing!

I purchased all of my gear initially from a brewer that brewed for 20 years. He only brewed extract the entire time. Throw a pound of crushed grain in with the boil. That's just how he did things....

I would never tell him he was wrong, but I enjoy making him smile every time I can manage to drop off a few beers at his place using all grain and tons of research.

I don't care how long you've brewed for to be honest. So much methods of the 80s have been erased completely. Having a 300 square foot space of brewing equipment may be "traditional", but it doesn't mean you make better beer. I enjoy hanging around a 3V setup, but it does NOT produce better quality beer, period!

I may have brewed only for 2 years, but I have brewed 50 times in that period. I've won a couple medals. I've unlocked how to make sours in my club in a way that makes other members come by and chat that have brewed for 30 years.

Time does not define a brewer. It's dedication. To the OP, absolutely, completely disregard ANYONE who suggest that BIAB is only a "step" to the real thing. BIAB IS the real thing, with ONE vessel.

 

[NSMikeD]

Think of BIAB as the next step in your home brewing journey. As mentioned start simple. The beauty of BIAB is that you can keep adding to your brew method as you gain experience or keep it simple. After a several decade hiatus I returned from extract with specialty grain to small batch BIAB and made very good beer with a kettle and bag.
My set up now includes an anvil foundry 6.5 gal, grain crusher, conical fermenter, mini fridge fermentation chamber and mini fridge kegerator and dialing in recipes using BeerSmith. Yet I’m still brewing essentially BIAB.

It didn’t happen overnight. My first tweak was drilling my kettle and adding a spigot and thermometer.

I would add a scale and software like BeerSmith if you plan on moving beyond basic brewing as equipment you likely don’t have with extract but would find useful with all grain. Perhaps a good food thermometer like a therma pen to spot check temps.

one last thing. As mentioned. Consider small batch brewing like 2.5 gallon. There a many of us who aren’t brainwashed into the 5 gallon standard that likely came about with the soda corny kegs. 2.5 gals is 20 pints. Plenty for you to enjoy for personal consumption while letting you quickly follow up with a tweak to a recipe and mixing it up with different styles. Plus my pot fit on the stove and in the oven(Keeping the mash warm) and making pulling the bag much easier. That was a plus as I too live in an apt.

 

[BarryBrews]

Back to the original question.

Most home brewers go through same developmental process of DME starter kits to their ultimate setup. Along the way a lot of money is wasted on equipment that is eventually discarded as it's replaced with equipment we feel brews beer easier and better.

The questions to ask yourself are:
1. How much beer will I need and how often do I want to brew? This will determine system size.
2. How much money can I spent without serious harmonious disturbance at home? Think big.
3. Have I considered all brewing options? BTW a brew bag in the mash tun is a no brainer.
4. Am I a tinker or a buy a complete system type of guy? Important if you plan to design and build your own.
5. Am I making the best beer with the least amount of effort? Kegs vs bottles, electric vs propane, home RO system and salts vs tap or purchased water, pump vs all that lifting and pouring, scientifically documented and reproducible vs Saturday afternoon kicked back fun, et al.

This is me 10 years later (pic).....I keg, use clean in place methods, use software to document everything, and still have that Saturday afternoon fun thing. I love brewing and can tinker with the best.

Crush grains directly to 30 gal mash tun with brew bag, 30 gallon RO water barrel (not shown), RIMS from brewhardware.com, Riptide pump, flowmeter, tipping kettle tables, Kelco CFC (I owned a Therminator, but clogs and very hard to clean), SCR two elements (240v and 120v), wireless temperature probes and 20 gal boil kettle. I make 11 gallon batches i.e. 2 x 5 gallon kegs worth monthly.

BTW nothing is simpler or faster than a single run 90 minute mash.

 

[Snuffy]

“To the OP, absolutely, completely disregard ANYONE who suggest that BIAB is only a "step" to the real thing.”

“Think of BIAB as the next step in your home brewing journey.”

I got a good chuckle out of those two posts back to back.

I brewed extract for a long time before attempting grain. To me, the only complicating and expense inducing issues with brewing beer come from going all grain. Extract may not be as authentic or whatever, but you don’t worry about making OG wiith extract. If you can measure water, you got it. If you got a kettle and a couple of buckets, you got it. Sometimes I backslide to extract just for a little brew vacation. And I usually can’t tell the difference in the beer.

 

[BarryBrews]

The method used in making your wort doesn't matter as long as it's clear and particle free for the boil, ingredients withstanding.

Off topic, I found kegging and oxygen free techniques were my biggest beer making improvements.

 

[McKnuckle]

If OP is still reading after all this...

Listen to @BarryBrews. Any brewer can make wort from malted grains, even if the gravity is off from target, IBU are too high, lots of trub, etc. There are many ways to do it, all are valid, and it's actually hard to screw up badly unless you are intentionally lazy.

Brew in a bag (or basket) involves separating grain from wort; traditional is separating wort from grain. Absolutely no real difference, so ignore all the noise.

The girls and boys are separated from the (wo)men on the cold side. That's when your wort/beer is extremely vulnerable, and any one of a wide range of process failures or scientific misunderstandings can result in a substandard product. Or to put a positive spin on it, where informed choices can be leveraged to significantly alter the product according to your goals.

After nearly 130 batches and seven years brewing, I can choose any convenient process I like to make wort based on the conditions, batch size, and my own whim that day. But I still fixate obsessively on how I will handle the precious wort once brew day itself is over.

Just a little perspective, that's all.

 

[Homebrewer85]

Long time lurker and I love this site. It's been very helpful to answer questions of mine without having to ask what's been asked. (Some of the opinions and disagreements are entertaining, like being at a bar/pub)

OP, in all reality and most importantly the choice is yours and your opinion matters most. Like stated before, all you need is a bigger pot to hold the grain and mash water. The type of pot and size depends on what you want to do. Electric or propane. You can always upgrade from there.

Here's my story: (grab a beer, it's long winded)
I first had the idea to make beer. Wife bought the mr. beer kit for me. I wanted larger batches so I bought a 4gal pot and a hot plate to brew extract with steeping grains in the bathroom. Loved it but eventually wanted to go all grain.
Got an 8.5gal pot with bazooka tube and propane burner. Use my fermenter to collect first runnings and kept the lil pot to hold batch sparge water and collect 2nd runnings. Dump grains, rinse pot and boil full volume wort.
Learned from here that cold or hot sparge doesn't matter, also batch or fly sparge doesn't either. That choice of equipment is yours as well.
Hated standing out in the cold during winter so I got the M&B, no pump no sparge. Love it.

Long story short. I do both "biab" and vessel brewing (depending on the season) and both are the same to me. 70% cleaning, 20% waiting, and 10% enjoying the beer.

 

[NSMikeD]

“To the OP, absolutely, completely disregard ANYONE who suggest that BIAB is only a "step" to the real thing.”

“Think of BIAB as the next step in your home brewing journey.”

I got a good chuckle out of those two posts back to back.

I brewed extract for a long time before attempting grain. To me, the only complicating and expense inducing issues with brewing beer come from going all grain. Extract may not be as authentic or whatever, but you don’t worry about making OG wiith extract. If you can measure water, you got it. If you got a kettle and a couple of buckets, you got it. Sometimes I backslide to extract just for a little brew vacation. And I usually can’t tell the difference in the beer.

i Chuckled as I typed it too, but “next step”, IMO, is an applicable term. I did not imply BIAB was not the “ real thing” but rather given its simplicity, it’s agreat way for extract brewers to make the leap to all grain who might otherwise be intimidated by more sophisticated and expensive systems.

 

[Senormac]

To OP.....I think forging ahead into all grain is a worthy goal. There is so much to learn and also so much cool gear and brewing paraphernalia to be tried. BIAB is great but I don't think you will be satisfied with stopping there. This hobby has a way of kindling fresh curiosity and inspiration in people.

 

[mashpaddled]

There are a lot of good options to brew--we're past the days when if you wanted to upgrade to all grain you either spent a fortune on a prebuilt system or you pieced a system together at the hardware store. Plenty of good electric options in addition to propane or gas burners, plenty of good single vessel systems, etc.

You should consider what you want to do and what you can do. How much beer do you need/want at a time? Does 5/10/15 gallons of the same beer interest you? Do you have to/want to brew outside or indoors? Do you have outdoor space for propane? How much storage space do you have? How much do you want to spend?

Think honestly about these things before committing to whatever system has the current cool factor or what people tell you that you should do. When I started brewing I set out to build a five gallon system. People told me over and over that I would definitely want a 15-20 gallon system but here I am eleven years later and the biggest batch I've ever brewed is six gallons. Most of my batches are 3.5 or 1 gallons. If I had done what people told me I would definitely want I would have spent several times too much for a system I didn't need and barely had space to store.

 

[fendersrule]

73% efficiency, super big beer, BIAB, no sparge.

Stone RIS clone.

I’m also enjoying the same one I made 1 year ago.

 

[RM-MN]

To OP.....I think forging ahead into all grain is a worthy goal. There is so much to learn and also so much cool gear and brewing paraphernalia to be tried. BIAB is great but I don't think you will be satisfied with stopping there. This hobby has a way of kindling fresh curiosity and inspiration in people.

Especially the desire to have shiny objects. Much money can be spent unnecessarily on shiny objects.

 

[jerrylotto]

How are you planning to heat your kettle? Brewing inside or outside? Propane or electric?

Brewing 5-5.5 gallon batches requires heating around 9 gallons of water in total, and boiling around 7 gallons down to 5.5-6 gallons.

Hrm - I mash and sparge in a Brewer's Edge "Mash and Boil" using a recirc pump but I transfer to a kettle for the boil. My 5 gal batches start with 7 gal of water, even the high grain bill mashes. I typically get at least 6 gal of wort after sparging. Then, I lose about 3/4 gallon in the boil and another quart to trub/hop matter. Why are your losses so much higher than my experience?

 

[Jag75]

Especially the desire to have shiny objects. Much money can be spent unnecessarily on shiny objects.

Oh how I love shiny objects lol

 

[tracer bullet]

There might be a "best" method to make beer, but if it exists many other methods come close enough most folks can't tell a difference. Or, a recipe can be adjusted to compensate. Not to rehash the whole thread but find a method that sounds good to you and try it. A bag isn't so much money and even if you change processes is still useful for other things in the future.

Personally I sparge, batch sparge, it's just too easy for me. Rinsing the grains while the first runnings are on the burner heating up is a tiny amount of work so why not.

 

[deuc224]

Wow I was buzzed when i wrote it but yes i mean FG. my numbers are always in order with brewfather but my yeast mostly eats more than it estimates. i wonder if a starter actually makes that big a difference.

 

[VikeMan]

Wow I was buzzed when i wrote it but yes i mean FG. my numbers are always in order with brewfather but my yeast mostly eats more than it estimates. i wonder if a starter actually makes that big a difference.

Do you mean... does a starter (and thus a bigger pitch) make a big difference in attenuation percent? IMO, only rarely. There are consequences to under-pitching, but under-attenuation isn't usually one of them in my experience. I will say that I quite often see posts that say something like, "I never make starters and I have no problems reaching my target FGs. Therefore starters aren't necessary." But I think that's missing the point.

 

[deuc224]

Vikeman, no like ill leave a starter and pitch the whole thing into some ready wort and it almost always finished super fast(3 days) and i have to cold crash it or i forget it and on the 5th day itll be over attenutated. Im sure it could be brewfather but its why i now check on day 3 where the beer is. I used to just let it go 7 days and check. ill make some notes of this upcoming brew tomorrow and make sure i check and tell everything so i can get some input on it.

 

[bleme]

Vikeman, no like ill leave a starter and pitch the whole thing into some ready wort and it almost always finished super fast(3 days) and i have to cold crash it or i forget it and on the 5th day itll be over attenutated.

If you want a higher FG, I would choose a different yeast or mash higher.

 

[VikeMan]

If you want a higher FG, I would choose a different yeast or mash higher.

...and/or mash shorter, and/or tweak the grain bill.

@deuc224, do you have a recent example of grain bill, mash temp, mash length, and yeast strain? If you can provide that, plus the OG you got, I could tell you approximately where I think the FG should have landed. Sometimes cases on "over attenuation" or "under attenuation" are really a matter of unreasonable expectations.

 

[fendersrule]

I'm not convinced mash times really have much significant value on FG from my experience, unless you are REALLY mashing long (overnight) and to be fair, you'll probably get a higher OG value as well.

Honestly, it's really more so in the grain, mash temp, and type of yeast used.

The easiest correction is to chose a yeast that attenuates at a lower percentage.

 

[jerrylotto]

Ultimately it is just a matter of chemical kinetics if you maintain a reasonable temperature range. alpha and beta amylase work best at different temperatures but the range in whcih they effectively convert starch to sugar overlaps and as long as you don't denature the enzymes (over 170 degrees) they will do their work. Stopping short of full conversion results in higher maltodextrine concentrations (4 to 20-mer polysaccharides) which will result in higher FG as yeast does not convert it to ethnol very well (about 3% efficient). Once you break down all of the polysaccherdes to simple sugars, more mashing won't impact your FG.