all grain brews keep coming out with the same bitter taste...

[BackAlley]

Just had another thought, could you do a small version of you mash on the stove and take a ph reading, adjust it, then scale that addition up on brew day?

You're absolutely right, you could. However, I think you'll find it's easier and more repeatable to first use some software (I use Bru'n water) to get you close and then make any last minute adjustments. I've only had my pH meter for 5 batches but I've yet to be off my target mash pH by more than 0.1.

 

[OptimusJay]

This thread is exactly what I was hoping to find regarding astringent taste and how mash pH plays into that. My last two all grain beers have been like this and they were used with my tap water as opposed to bottled water in nearly every previous brew. So, it looks like I'll be getting a pH meter and some acids for adjustment soon.

One question though. I use a 10g round Rubbermaid cooler for my MLT and I'm somewhat concerned about my mash temp dropping if I'm in there sampling for pH and then possibly (and most likely in my case) in there again adding acids and stiring for adjustment. Is this an issue for any of you? And if so, what do you do to keep mash temp from dropping?

Jay

 

[BackAlley]

One question though. I use a 10g round Rubbermaid cooler for my MLT and I'm somewhat concerned about my mash temp dropping if I'm in there sampling for pH and then possibly (and most likely in my case) in there again adding acids and stiring for adjustment. Is this an issue for any of you? And if so, what do you do to keep mash temp from dropping?

Jay

The heat loss is negligible. I took 3 readings today and I measured 0.4 degrees HIGHER at the end than at the start.

I'm taking orders for perpetual motion machines now too.

 

[fearwig]

Checking pH of your water, strike or sparge is, I believe, practically meaningless. You're monitoring and adjusting the pH of the mash and runnings.

You have surely heard someone say this, and perhaps they were ignorant to the fact that your mash pH is a factor of your grist aaaaand... your water. So if you are troubleshooting your mash pH, unless you have some mysteriously sour source of grains, you should check out your water.

A mash made of grist X and pH 7.5 water will be way more acidic than the same grist from pH 9, every time. The reason people tell you to look at mash pH is because that's where your target comes in (low fives) and dark grains lower your pH more than light. Makes sense?

Now if you wait and adjust your pH 30 minutes into your mash, maybe it'll be fine--but you just did half your mash at the wrong pH. It's probably a bigger deal at sparge than sacc rest but some initial adjustment makes perfect sense if your strike pH is crazy.

 

[colinzeye]

Sterilization is one of the best habits to have but, over sterilizing can produce a bitter chemical taste also. Try just washing with HOT, soapy water (using a good antibacterial dish soap that isunscented), a cap of bleach and rinsing REALLY well. Dry. Use star San to spray on and let dry.
Also boil your water for 15 minutes to eliminate the chlorination. Boil and cool, then start your brew as you normally would.

 

[BackAlley]

A mash made of grist X and pH 7.5 water will be way more acidic than the same grist from pH 9, every time.

I believe I could take distilled water and with a little addition get it to have a pH of 9 then take very alkaline water at a pH of 7.5 and get a lower mash pH with the higher pH water.

pH of the water tells you nothing about the alkalinity. My water has a pH of 8.4. Sounds high right? I should have trouble mashing right? Wrong. My alkalinity is 37ppm. I easily can get too acidic with dark malts.

 

[IslandLizard]

I don't know if this inadvertently dropped out, but if you know you have chlorine or chloramines in your water you do want to use 1/4 Campden tablet per 5 gallons of water (or use a pinch of potassium metabisulphite). Stir well. Just boiling alone will not drive of chloramines in reasonable time. It's an entirely different issue than tannin extraction but can ruin your beer just as much or worse if left untreated.

I don't know if one can really taste citric acid at such low concentrations. I'll queue the test up for next time.

Doing small test mashes (a couple ounces will do fine) to determine the pH and needed additions makes more sense than keep brewing the same recipe over and over again.

 

[fearwig]

I believe I could take distilled water and with a little addition get it to have a pH of 9 then take very alkaline water at a pH of 7.5 and get a lower mash pH with the higher pH water.

pH of the water tells you nothing about the alkalinity. My water has a pH of 8.4. Sounds high right? I should have trouble mashing right? Wrong. My alkalinity is 37ppm. I easily can get too acidic with dark malts.

Not with the same grain bill, you couldn't. Which is the point.

8.4 isn't that nuts for tap, just a little high. You could certainly go under 5 with that water if you make something really roasty. If you make strike water adjustments (vs adjusting in mash) you obviously have to take grist and style into account, but if you're troubleshooting tannin flavors that only occur in paler mashes (like the OP, if anyone noticed) this isn't relevant.

 

[fearwig]

I don't know if one can really taste citric acid at such low concentrations. I'll queue the test up for next time.

pH 5.6 wort will taste different from pH 5.2 wort (if you can detect it anyway) no matter what you use to acidify, so I think the "threshold" talk you tend to hear is mostly a mess--pH is what you're trying to alter, so being able to taste it is a weird point of discussion to me.

I think what people should consider instead is whether water adjusted with citric tastes different from water adjusted with lactic (or whatever) and if so whether one is preferable to the other. My money says some brewers favor lactic because they associate it with e.g sours brewing, so it sounds more "natural". Either is so cheap it's silly in the amounts needed, so it's about whatever is on hand, IMO.

 

[afr0byte]

Not with the same grain bill, you couldn't. Which is the point.

8.4 isn't that nuts for tap, just a little high. You could certainly go under 5 with that water if you make something really roasty. If you make strike water adjustments (vs adjusting in mash) you obviously have to take grist and style into account, but if you're troubleshooting tannin flavors that only occur in paler mashes (like the OP, if anyone noticed) this isn't relevant.

For most beers you don't want any alkalinity, and for those you do want some alkalinity it's a modest amount. The starting water pH has very little affect in these cases.

 

[fearwig]

For most beers you don't want any alkalinity, and for those you do want some alkalinity it's a modest amount. The starting water pH has very little affect in these cases.

I'm not sure what "you don't want any alkalinity" means--you certainly don't want a sparge water that's nonalkaline (under pH 7) any more than you want a mash pH over 7, so I'm not sure I follow you there.

Starting water pH definitely has an effect on the mash pH. The apparently really common idea here that it doesn't is a myth caused by oversimplifying some reasonable advice: Don't worry as much about strike water pH as mash pH, because mash pH is where your final target is and there are other factors to consider. I don't want to beat this horse any more but I am going to sum up briefly because I usually talk too much and bury my point.

There are three main variables to mash pH as I see it:

- Grist roast (roastier = more acidic)
- Grist quantity (higher gravity = somewhat more acidic, but it is self-limiting)
- Water pH

To the extent that the first two two stay the same (like within the confines of one recipe), your water pH is the main thing determining your mash pH.

All this said, if you don't seem to have a problem making session blondes or light lagers that don't taste like tea bags, you don't have an alkalinity problem, and you don't need adjustment (but by all means experiment away). Optimizing pH has a positive effect on sugar extraction too but I think efficiency is pretty unimportant at homebrew scales as long as you get it consistent.

 

[afr0byte]

I'm not sure what "you don't want any alkalinity" means--you certainly don't want a sparge water that's nonalkaline (under pH 7) or a mash pH over 7 (!), so I'm not sure I follow you there.

Starting water pH definitely has an effect on the mash pH. The apparently really common idea here that it doesn't is a myth caused by oversimplifying some reasonable advice: Don't worry as much about strike water pH as mash pH, because mash pH is where your final target is and there are other factors to consider. I don't want to beat this horse any more but I am going to sum up briefly because I usually talk too much and bury my point.

There are three main variables to mash pH as I see it:

- Grist roast (roastier = more acidic)
- Grist quantity (higher gravity = somewhat more acidic)
- Water pH

To the extent that the first two two stay the same (like within the confines of one recipe), your water pH is the main thing determining your mash pH.

All this said, if you don't seem to have a problem making your session blondes or light lagers that don't taste like tea bags, you don't have an alkalinity problem, and you don't need adjustment (but by all means experiment away).

In these case of water treatment, alkalinity doesn't mean > 7! You're apparently the one oversimplifying things. The alkalinity number you're going to see in your water report is a measurement taken by titrating down to either 4.3 or 4.5 (4.3 is most accurate, as you theoretically would have just about no bicarbonate left in your water, but 4.5 is easier to see the change as you're titrating). Your water's alkalinity is primarily water determines the mash pH, not your water's pH!

Most beers don't need any alkalinity (This essentially means no bicarbonate in most residential water, as below a pH of roughly 8.3 you should have almost not carbonate alkalinity in your water.). In fact, most beers need an addition of acid to get down to the ideal range of 5.3-5.5 mash pH (room temperature measurement). Given a very low starting alkalinity, the water pH is largely irrelevant because the difference in the amount of acid needed is based almost entirely on the grist's acidity and the hardness of the water (calcium reacts with malt phosphates to release h+ ions, lowering the pH).

Also, a larger grain bill, assuming the same water to grain ratio, IS NOT MORE ACIDIC. Sure, the pH of a mash with water of alkalinity 300 is going to be lower if you use more grain for a given amount of water, but that has nothing to do with the total weight of the grist. It's all about the concentrations.

 

[fearwig]

Also, a larger grain bill, assuming the same water to grain ratio, IS NOT MORE ACIDIC. Sure, the pH of a mash with water of alkalinity 300 is going to be lower if you use more grain for a given amount of water, but that has nothing to do with the total weight of the grist. It's all about the concentrations.

It has a lower pH. It is more acidic. I don't know what definition of "acidic" you are working with (apparently related to this unique definition of "alkalinity"), but that's obviously important to remember if you are going to make any kind of adjustment based on recipe to reach a target mash pH (which is the whole point).

In fact, most beers need an addition of acid to get down to the ideal range of 5.3-5.5 mash pH (room temperature measurement). Given a very low starting alkalinity, the water pH is largely irrelevant because the difference in the amount of acid needed is based almost entirely on the grist's acidity and the hardness of the water (calcium reacts with malt phosphates to release h+ ions, lowering the pH).

This is exactly what I have been saying, except that you added "the water pH is largely irrelevant" (which is refuted by everything else you said). Obviously it's "irrelevant" if you are adjusting every water sample to precise standards and ignoring the original water, but the OP and many others aren't adjusting their water, and their water needs it. If the original pH is "irrelevant" it's only because it's almost always slightly too high (in OP's case it was likely abnormally high, hence the tanins).

 

[afr0byte]

It has a lower pH. It is more acidic. I don't know what definition of "acidic" you are working with (apparently related to this unique definition of "alkalinity"), but that's obviously important to remember if you are going to make any kind of adjustment based on recipe to reach a target mash pH (which is the whole point).

It would only have a lower pH if you lowered the water to grain ratio (i.e. If you went with 1 qt/lb instead of 1.5qts/lb). A pH measurement is, after all, a measurement of the hydronium ion concentration of a solution. Also, it's not my definition of alkalinity. It's in, for example, the new Water book, which is an entire book on brewing water.

 

[afr0byte]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alkalinity#Theoretical_treatment_of_alkalinity

 

[Yooper]

I'm not sure what "you don't want any alkalinity" means--you certainly don't want a sparge water that's nonalkaline (under pH 7) any more than you want a mash pH over 7, so I'm not sure I follow you there.

Starting water pH definitely has an effect on the mash pH. The apparently really common idea here that it doesn't is a myth caused by oversimplifying some reasonable advice: Don't worry as much about strike water pH as mash pH, because mash pH is where your final target is and there are other factors to consider. I don't want to beat this horse any more but I am going to sum up briefly because I usually talk too much and bury my point.

There are three main variables to mash pH as I see it:

- Grist roast (roastier = more acidic)
- Grist quantity (higher gravity = somewhat more acidic, but it is self-limiting)
- Water pH

To the extent that the first two two stay the same (like within the confines of one recipe), your water pH is the main thing determining your mash pH.

All this said, if you don't seem to have a problem making session blondes or light lagers that don't taste like tea bags, you don't have an alkalinity problem, and you don't need adjustment (but by all means experiment away). Optimizing pH has a positive effect on sugar extraction too but I think efficiency is pretty unimportant at homebrew scales as long as you get it consistent.

As was mentioned, alkalinity doesn't mean a pH > 7. You definitely do want your sparge water to be acidified, as tannin extraction becomes an issue if the sparge runnings are > 6.

You can take water with a high pH, but with 0 bicarbonate/alkalinity and easily maintain a sparge pH <6.

 

[Yooper]

This is exactly what I have been saying, except that you added "the water pH is largely irrelevant" (which is refuted by everything else you said). Obviously it's "irrelevant" if you are adjusting every water sample to precise standards and ignoring the original water, but the OP and many others aren't adjusting their water, and their water needs it. If the original pH is "irrelevant" it's only because it's almost always slightly too high (in OP's case it was likely abnormally high, hence the tanins).

I'll say it too.

The water pH is largely irrelevent.

 

[fearwig]

It would only have a lower pH if you lowered the water to grain ratio (i.e. If you went with 1 qt/lb instead of 1.5qts/lb). A pH measurement is, after all, a measurement of the hydronium ion concentration of a solution. Also, it's not my definition of alkalinity. It's in, for example, the new Water book, which is an entire book on brewing water.

That's a good point that you're not going to use same mash volume with a higher on grist weight, I didn't account for that. I should have stated it was "grist to water ratio", or similar, not weight.

I know it's not your language, I'm no chemist--I used alkalinity to refer to high pH. The OP needed to acidify his water. I recommended that. Presumably he doesn't have a water report, but he does have a pH meter.

(above is rife with edits, sorry)

 

[fearwig]

I'll say it too.

The water pH is largely irrelevent.

If you have already adjusted it, sure. I have been suggesting acidifying water the whole thread. *groan* *point missed, gone, dead* *towel*

 

[afr0byte]

I know it's not your language, but combining the definition of alkalinity used in a water report with the actual meaning of alkalinity is pretty bad for communication, they are different. Was silly of me to misunderstand you, though.

That's the actual scientific, non-layman, definition of alkalinity. It's what matters most in a water report with regards to targeting an appropriate mash pH. I'm not going to apologize for that.

 

[fearwig]

That's the actual scientific, non-layman, definition of alkalinity. It's what matters most in a water report with regards to targeting an appropriate mash pH. I'm not going to apologize for that.

Heh yeah, I re-edited that as you were quoting me. I fail, you're right.

You obviously came in here with the better information, and I wouldn't pretend otherwise, but I don't think the OP and people like him needed to be bombarded with chemistry so much as given some tips for the things that affect final mash pH (including strike water chemistry--whether you think specifically pH is "largely irrelevant" or not it's what most people can measure, and it is at the very least a good indication of what mash pH is going to look like unless your hardness is abnormally low).

That's the last time I put something in bullet form, once you make something that is phrased too authoritatively and is not "TLDR" everyone is going to find time to pick at it that they didn't have to respond to the OP.

 

[Yooper]

If you have already adjusted it, sure. I have been suggesting acidifying water the whole thread. *groan* *point missed, gone, dead* *towel*

No, not if you have (or haven't) adjusted it.

Alkalinity is crucial. pH is not. A water pH of 9 doesn't mean that the mash pH will be too high. It just doesn't. It has to do with the buffering capacity (the alkalinity) and nothing to do with the pH.

 

[fearwig]

No, not if you have (or haven't) adjusted it.

Alkalinity is crucial. pH is not. A water pH of 9 doesn't mean that the mash pH will be too high. It just doesn't. It has to do with the buffering capacity (the alkalinity) and nothing to do with the pH.

Yeah, I see I was off base, of course you're right. You can't measure alkalinity with strips or a $12 handheld meter, though, and wild pH is at least an indicator of what your problem might be--a good place to start, definitely not totally irrelevant, just not the end-all because it doesn't factor in buffering capacity. I mean the alkalinity is about how much acid you need to move that pH down to X level--so if you have pH 9 and the same buffering capacity as a pH 8 solution you need more acid (or else you'd have a higher pH end solution).

I can see why you'd wait and just make adjustments in the mash given that information if you don't have a water report, but I still wonder whether that doesn't mean you're doing half or more of your mash at the wrong pH. Maybe that doesn't matter if tannin extraction is mostly happening in sparge, I don't know.

I'd also suggest that people whose water has very little alkalinity probably aren't suffering from high mash pH to begin with because then their grist would be enough to bring it to an acceptable range (or close enough that they wouldn't be retching at their beer) if there isn't much buffering capacity. Right?

 

[afr0byte]

Yeah, I see I was off base, of course you're right. You can't measure alkalinity with strips or a $12 handheld meter, though, and wild pH is at least an indicator of what your problem might be--a good place to start, definitely not totally irrelevant, just not the end-all because it doesn't factor in buffering capacity. I mean the alkalinity is about how much acid you need to move that pH down to X level--so if you have pH 9 and the same buffering capacity as a pH 8 solution you need more acid (or else you'd have a higher pH end solution).

I can see why you'd wait and just make adjustments in the mash given that information if you don't have a water report, but I still wonder whether that doesn't mean you're doing half or more of your mash at the wrong pH. Maybe that doesn't matter if tannin extraction is mostly happening in sparge, I don't know.

I'd also suggest that people whose water has very little alkalinity probably aren't suffering from high mash pH to begin with because then their grist would be enough to bring it to an acceptable range (or close enough that they wouldn't be retching at their beer) if there isn't much buffering capacity. Right?

Those with low alkalinity could still have higher than optimal pH, but yeah they probably won't have tannin issues.

 

[EarlyAmateurZymurgist]

deleted

 

[cank]

Lovin the conversation.
To the OP, how did that ph meter work out? I have some test strips that I used for a small sample mash and they read about 5 so I added a sprinkle of baking soda and it rose to about 5.5. Sounds like most people never have to increase their ph, so ??? I probably need a meter and to send a water sample in. I got a report from the state but they have samples from 5 different water treatment plants in town and not sure yet which one is mine.

Do people experience differences in their water at different times of the year?

I don't know if this inadvertently dropped out, but if you know you have chlorine or chloramines in your water you do want to use 1/4 Campden tablet per 5 gallons of water (or use a pinch of potassium metabisulphite). Stir well. Just boiling alone will not drive of chloramines in reasonable time. It's an entirely different issue than tannin extraction but can ruin your beer just as much or worse if left untreated.

This could be part of my problem. I never have treated for chlorine and my latest city report has Chlorine levels ranging from .58-1.98 ppm. However in my first 3 AG batches I did not have this taste.

Still scratching my head but I feel like I have a direction to go in.

 

[G2G]

Hi, I'll still report back once this batch is done to see if it all worked out but I used the PH meter and citric acid on this last batch for the first time. I checked the strike water, sparge water, and mash at various times and adjusted with the acid. Right at dough in, then 10-15 mins in I had it to 5.2, then towards the end with 8 mins left it was at 5.3, and final wort before boil was 5.4 (after sparging). I'll be honest I ran into my temperature going down from stirring in the citric acid and had to add some boiling water to get it back up but it was the first time I've done this and figure I'll get more a of a system down moving fwd. Everything else went smooth and it's fermenting now. We'll see. Also, I'm still waiting on water sample to see if I'm going to scrap the tap water completely or if it's useable but wanted to test this in the meantime. I got another week on fermentation and will post again.

 

[G2G]

Sorry, and I still used the campden tablets but no "5.2 stabilizer" this time.

 

[Kiknjville]

OP: I think I have been having the same issue since I started brewing a year ago. Is it an aspirin like bitterness at the back of your tongue? Like you, I have spent many hours and lots of money trying to get rid of that off flavor. I have partial mashed, moved to all grain, used tap water, spring water, distilled water, brewed different ale types, upgraded equipment, star sanned the crap out of everything; all to have the same results. In my last batch, I made a successful yeast starter with a stir plate for the first time. I also aerated with a paint mixer attached to a drill (not the first time.) I'm hoping that this solves the issue. My bottles are conditioning now and I''ll be testing them in two weeks. I subscribed to the thread and I'll let you know my results. Let me know if it is the same off flavor as described above.

 

[G2G]

OP: I think I have been having the same issue since I started brewing a year ago. Is it an aspirin like bitterness at the back of your tongue? Like you, I have spent many hours and lots of money trying to get rid of that off flavor. I have partial mashed, moved to all grain, used tap water, spring water, distilled water, brewed different ale types, upgraded equipment, star sanned the crap out of everything; all to have the same results. In my last batch, I made a successful yeast starter with a stir plate for the first time. I also aerated with a paint mixer attached to a drill (not the first time.) I'm hoping that this solves the issue. My bottles are conditioning now and I''ll be testing them in two weeks. I subscribed to the thread and I'll let you know my results. Let me know if it is the same off flavor as described above.

Kiknjville,
Yup, that's it. Sounds like the same experience I've had. I will def let you know how it turns out.