All Brett starter

[gandelf]

I plan on doing an all Brett ale soon using the info primarily from Chad Yakobson. I emailed WYeast and got some yeast counts for their wild packs. So, I'm looking for some math in regards to stepping up a starter to lager quantities.

 

[jeepinjeepin]

Budget some extra time for a Brett starter. You are looking more like 7-10 days instead of 1-3 for that starter.

 

[gandelf]

Thanks, I have that. What I'm looking for is an equation/equations to ramp up wild packs of Brett (75mil) to lager quantities. I have
been gadget brewing 8 years, so I have the equipment. I have made a few sour ales. This will be my first Brett ale; I do not have a
taste for horse sweet. The all Brett ales (sour "pie" cherry) flavors are appealing to me.

 

[gandelf]

I should mention my cell count is based on this reply from WYeast:

Quote:
6.25.2012
For the Brett strains, the count is 75 billion viable cells total / pack. For the 5335 and 5733, the count is approximately 20 billion cells total/pack. The counts on the 3763 are proprietary. Please let me know if you have other questions.

Jess Caudill
Brewer/Microbiologist
Wyeast Laboratories, Inc.

 

[eastoak]

not all Brett has a cherry pie flavor the main one is B. lambicus for that flavor. i pitch just the smack pack (5 gallons) and it ferments just fine, it's not like under pitching sacc yeast.

 

[gandelf]

I KNOW not all Brett produces the cherry pie flavor; I didn't ask about that. It seems to me the main problem with forums are getting everything but the answer to the question of the thread.

 

[jeepinjeepin]

I KNOW not all Brett produces the cherry pie flavor; I didn't ask about that. It seems to me the main problem with forums are getting everything but the answer to the question of the thread.

Maybe you should look at Chad Yakobson's site? He has lots of Brett research info.

 

[gandelf]

Been their and emailed him; he was out of town. So, it will be sometime before he catches up. I also asked him if there was
to be a Brett book?

 

[Brew_Ninja]

I'm not sure what equipment you have, but if you have a microscope and hemacytometer you could grow it up similar to saccharomyces to the lager quantity of 1.5 million cells/ml/°P. Count the number of cells to verify that you have about 1.5 million cells/ml/°P before pitching. Brett is still a yeast after all, just a little smaller than saccharomyces.

 

[Marquez]

Chad was interviewed on the Brewing Network, and described a method for starters.

I did not write the details, but its all there.

It is a very interesting listen.

 

[stubbornman]

Scroll down to the section on Propagation.

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/2540232/6-16-2011-NHC-Brettanomyces.pdf

 

[gandelf]

Thanks stubbornman, I don't know how I missed that? I had been threw that info last winter. I should have what I need now.

Brew_Ninja, as for the equipment; I have everything but a decent hemacytometer and some stain. I was in the process
of acquiring it, when my BIAB experiment exploded. I ended up selling 75% of my old school (B3 1550 knock off) equipment
and building an automated BIAB dedicated rig. I'm currently finishing a new "wet" fermentation chamber. In light of those
expenditures, I need to lay in the "weeds" for a while. One needs to be mindful of the radar, if you know what I mean?

 

[eastoak]

I KNOW not all Brett produces the cherry pie flavor; I didn't ask about that. It seems to me the main problem with forums are getting everything but the answer to the question of the thread.

actually the MAIN problem with forums is the people who are really sensitive and cranky about everything.

 

[kwadric]

I just did a did a starter for an all Brett beer. I used Yeast Calc, entered the cell count for a WL vial as 50 billion, and used the ale pitching rate. CY said on the Session to use that lager pitching rate, which is about double the ale pitching rate. Cutting the initial cell count in half for an ale is about the same as using the lager pitching rate... I assumed that is what he meant but I could be wrong especially since Wyeast packs have 75 billion cells.

http://www.yeastcalc.com/

 

[gandelf]

Thanks kwadric, useful info. I looked at a couple of calculators and I like the fact YeastCalc incorporates a stir plate factor. I know
their are many variables in all of this, so I'm trying not to get super focused on the details. I have made sour ales, but this will be my
first Brett ale. I know it will not be stellar; I just want to give it's best shot. Hmm, a little like sending a child off on their first day of
school. Hopefully the Brett will far well on the school bus ride? Ha Ha Ha

 

[kwadric]

gandelf, it's my first all Brett too... so I made a WAG on the starter and I hope that it doesn't end up in the backyard.

 

[gandelf]

Yes, I have to admit that over the years I had to visit the backyard occasionally. Did you acidify the starter wort before pitching
the Brett? The conciseness I have from my research, is their is a much shorter lag time and a cleaner Brett ferment when the wort
is =< 4.5 pH at pitch time. Some brewers have adjusted the pH with Lactic acid, sour mash or a Lacto ferment then boil and then
pitch the Brett. I plan on doing the latter. When doing my sours, I pitch the Lacto at 95 degrees for 2 or 3 days to reach a nice
tart level. It's usually 2 days if I plan on adding tart fruit like raspberries or cranberries in a sour fruit wheat and never more than
3 days for a sour no fruit wheat. My sour wheats with a slice of orange is a popular beverage.

 

[kwadric]

I'm doing a process like a no boil Berliner. I made a WL Brett and WL Lacto starter the day I brewed. I used a Belgian Wit grain bill without hops. I adjusted the mash pH down to about 5.2. I transferred the wort to keg and purged with CO2. I used my temp controller set to 100F, a ferm wrap, and a sweat shirt to keep the temp up. When the wort naturally cooled to 120F I pitched unmilled two row in a hop bag and purged the keg again. A day later I removed the grain and pitched the Lacto starter. On day seven I'm going test the pH and adjust down to 4.5 with lactic acid, if needed, before I pitch the Brett starter. I'm debating if I'm going to pitch in the keg or heat the wort up to 180F to kill the bacteria, chill, transfer to a carboy, and then pitch.

I went with a grain and a pure culture starter to try to get genetic diversity. It sounds odd, but I'm hoping for a little bit of rank smelling lactic fermentation in hopes that the Brett does some cool stuff with the off flavors. Maybe it will work out.

There is some good info about the different bacteria in a sour mash here:
http://www.byo.com/stories/techniques/article/indices/9-all-grain-brewing/893-how-to-make-a-sour-mash-techniques

 

[kwadric]

And one advantage of a pH under 4.5 is that inhibits acetobacter...