Alkalinity Testing with Burette Titration - .1 HCl?

[mabrungard]

Oh - reagent grade - what's the verdict on suitability? I know it's not been certified as food safe, coming from a food processing facility, but in practice?

In my opinion, since that material is certified to have certain, very high purity and therefore can't contain appreciable contaminants like heavy metals, I believe that Reagent grade acid can be employed in the absence of FCC or food-safe grade acid.

 

[user 246304]

Martin, thanks very much. Helps quite a bit.

 

[ajdelange]

In my opinion, since that material is certified to have certain, very high purity and therefore can't contain appreciable contaminants like heavy metals, I believe that Reagent grade acid can be employed in the absence of FCC or food-safe grade acid.

I'll say it again: in order to qualify as FCC grade the material must be packaged in a facility that is certified for the processing of food products. Chemical purity, of course, is an issue and I'd guess that ACS or reagent grade processed in an approved facility would be eligible for FCC approval in nearly all cases. But I would never, in these litigious times in a public forum, advise anyone to use anything except FCC or USP/NF grades for human consumption.

 

[ajdelange]

A link to Murphy's datasheet is given below and below that an extract from it.

Funny thing is as I was responding to earlier posts I was thinking "Bet this guy's been at Murphy's website."

CALCIUM SULPHATE should NOT be added to the hot liquor tank (HLT), as some constituents are insoluble.

When you read something like this you immediately begin to be suspicious (or you should) of the whole site. Which constituents of calcium sulfate are insoluble? The CaSO4? The water of hydration? The calcium ions? The sulfate ions. Calcium sulfate's solubility is well known as is it's solubility product. It is considered somewhat soluble.

The obvious thing for Gadjobrinus to do here is make up a small quantity of the water he wants to brew with, heat it and see what happens. The numbers indicate that the most likely answer is 'nothing' IOW there should be no precipitation of CaSO4. Just as a sanity check I made up a saturated solution of CaSO4 by putting an excess in a Falcon tube and shaking it (on a wrist action shaker - very vigorous) with about 35 mL of RO water for a few minutes at room temperature. This should dissolve all that is going to dissolve. I then centrifuged the tube and decanted the clear liquid into a cylinder. This should be a saturated solution. To test common ion effect I then added CaCl2 - quite a bit (about a gram to 40 mL). No precipitation was noted. I then boiled the mix. No precipitation noted (i.e. solution still clear). I then added some calcium bicarbonate solution. Now there is precipitation but it is calcium carbonate - not calcium sulfate.

It would be better if they said "Water with temporary hardness will precipitate chalk in the HLT. Addition of gypsum to the HLT will, in such cases, exacerbate this precipitation so it is better to add it to the grist."

 

[mabrungard]

Another thing that AJ could mention is that we brewers don't typically mineralize our brewing liquor to the point that we are anywhere near a saturated solution.

Brewers using typically recommended ion concentrations should have no problem getting salts to dissolve. It might just take a few extra minutes of stirring...but they will dissolve. (excepting chalk, of course)

 

[cire]

Funny thing is as I was responding to earlier posts I was thinking "Bet this guy's been at Murphy's website."

.......................................................................................

It would be better if they said "Water with temporary hardness will precipitate chalk in the HLT. Addition of gypsum to the HLT will, in such cases, exacerbate this precipitation so it is better to add it to the grist."

Very interesting, thank you for providing those findings.

I'm no fan of Murphy's, but do brew with alkalinity in my liquor. If I don't, pH crashes to produce a wort with low fermentability. Despite this, I am aware that when brewing lagers there are circumstances that require an acidified liquor to avoid elevated mash pH, that would otherwise produce astringency in the finished beer. Could it be, and might you think, that America lost the art of brewing ales during prohibition?

 

[ajdelange]

You'd do better to consult a beer historian that me on that question. My impression would be that prior to prohibition every reasonable size town in the US had a brewery run by German immigrants. Up until fairly recently there were more Americans of German heritage than any other national group. I have never thought of Americans as being big ale consumers in the past. I'm old enough to remember Ballantine Ale but I think that was probably ale in name more than in actual qualities. Of course the Germans have some ales too but they are certainly different from the traditional British ales.

 

[user 246304]

I'll say it again: in order to qualify as FCC grade the material must be packaged in a facility that is certified for the processing of food products. Chemical purity, of course, is an issue and I'd guess that ACS or reagent grade processed in an approved facility would be eligible for FCC approval in nearly all cases. But I would never, in these litigious times in a public forum, advise anyone to use anything except FCC or USP/NF grades for human consumption.

I understand. Thanks AJ. I assume informed and complete responsibility.

 

[user 246304]

Funny thing is as I was responding to earlier posts I was thinking "Bet this guy's been at Murphy's website."



When you read something like this you immediately begin to be suspicious (or you should) of the whole site. Which constituents of calcium sulfate are insoluble? The CaSO4? The water of hydration? The calcium ions? The sulfate ions. Calcium sulfate's solubility is well known as is it's solubility product. It is considered somewhat soluble.

The obvious thing for Gadjobrinus to do here is make up a small quantity of the water he wants to brew with, heat it and see what happens. The numbers indicate that the most likely answer is 'nothing' IOW there should be no precipitation of CaSO4. Just as a sanity check I made up a saturated solution of CaSO4 by putting an excess in a Falcon tube and shaking it (on a wrist action shaker - very vigorous) with about 35 mL of RO water for a few minutes at room temperature. This should dissolve all that is going to dissolve. I then centrifuged the tube and decanted the clear liquid into a cylinder. This should be a saturated solution. To test common ion effect I then added CaCl2 - quite a bit (about a gram to 40 mL). No precipitation was noted. I then boiled the mix. No precipitation noted (i.e. solution still clear). I then added some calcium bicarbonate solution. Now there is precipitation but it is calcium carbonate - not calcium sulfate.

It would be better if they said "Water with temporary hardness will precipitate chalk in the HLT. Addition of gypsum to the HLT will, in such cases, exacerbate this precipitation so it is better to add it to the grist."

Thank you, AJ; looking forward to seeing the results of my little trial, and very intrigued by your trial above. I'm still wanting to understand the underlying reasoning of the dry-grist mixing, v. liquor. CaSO4 exacerbates because of nucleation sites, or something on the molecular level?

Is it possible Murphy recommends because liquor is rarely cold, so gypsum's solubility is much less than if adding it in, mixed within the grist, under hot liquor conditions? I've no idea but I'd love to know the reasoning behind this suggestion by Murphy.

 

[user 246304]

Another thing that AJ could mention is that we brewers don't typically mineralize our brewing liquor to the point that we are anywhere near a saturated solution.

Brewers using typically recommended ion concentrations should have no problem getting salts to dissolve. It might just take a few extra minutes of stirring...but they will dissolve. (excepting chalk, of course)

Thanks, Martin. Yeah, that was a pretty compelling trial. Wish I had a centrifuge to replicate but it was very interesting to see the results.

 

[user 246304]

Very interesting, thank you for providing those findings.

I'm no fan of Murphy's, but do brew with alkalinity in my liquor. If I don't, pH crashes to produce a wort with low fermentability. Despite this, I am aware that when brewing lagers there are circumstances that require an acidified liquor to avoid elevated mash pH, that would otherwise produce astringency in the finished beer. Could it be, and might you think, that America lost the art of brewing ales during prohibition?

Cire, why aren't you a fan of Murphy's? Those mineral levels you pointed out - do you consider them authoritative or perhaps representative, would be a better way of saying it?

 

[user 246304]

You'd do better to consult a beer historian that me on that question. My impression would be that prior to prohibition every reasonable size town in the US had a brewery run by German immigrants. Up until fairly recently there were more Americans of German heritage than any other national group. I have never thought of Americans as being big ale consumers in the past. I'm old enough to remember Ballantine Ale but I think that was probably ale in name more than in actual qualities. Of course the Germans have some ales too but they are certainly different from the traditional British ales.

My understanding is that Ballantine was actually the lone voice in the wilderness and was a fine IPA in its time, coming over at the height of the IPA trade over the first third of the 19th century; many writers (among them, Michael Jackson) praising the brewery's authentic ales before the claws of industry ruined it like so many others.

 

[cire]

You'd do better to consult a beer historian that me on that question. My impression would be that prior to prohibition every reasonable size town in the US had a brewery run by German immigrants. Up until fairly recently there were more Americans of German heritage than any other national group. I have never thought of Americans as being big ale consumers in the past. I'm old enough to remember Ballantine Ale but I think that was probably ale in name more than in actual qualities. Of course the Germans have some ales too but they are certainly different from the traditional British ales.

From what I've read there was a time when ales and lagers were 50-50, but I think the big change took place with the intrduction of refrigeration around 1880. The following is an extract of a paper read in Britain in the thirties. The opening indicates the direction in which brewing was going for some time into the future and a comment on American/European lagers too.


In most cities there is a choice between beers of the breweries of St. Louis and Milwaukee with nationwide distribution and those of local breweries, in some cases almost equally large and famous. Many of the beers and breweries have German names and a large number of the workmen are of German origin, so that it is not astonishing to find that a large proportion of the beer is of lager type, though brewed from very different materials from those used for European lagers and by methods appropriate for those materials. The term " beer" is restricted to the lager type. It is usually filtered and carbonated and sold very cold. There is a very considerable and apparently increasing demand for top fermentation beers, which are always referred to as ales. The demand seems to be for a very pale ale with a distinctive hop flavour, and it is not difficult to realise that it is no simple matter to obtain the flavour typical of English ales from the very lightly cured Manchuria malts containing about 2 per cent, of nitrogen, mashed with a high proportion of maize grits or rice or brewed with some sugar which may be a glucose syrup or invert, particularly when the hops are mostly of the American types. It is difficult to estimate the consumption of ale, but a personal estimate is that approximately 10 per cent, of the entire consumption consists of ale. The popularity of the lager beer is due to the fact that the American public prefers cold drinks, and it is obvious that ale loses a great deal in character by severe chilling

Cire, why aren't you a fan of Murphy's? Those mineral levels you pointed out - do you consider them authoritative or perhaps representative, would be a better way of saying it?

For several reasons, but on water treatment is because they offer a one size fits all process. This maximises marketing potential for whatever your water supply there is the same answer.

Finished beer is vastly influenced by the mineral contents of water used and any further minerals added during the process, brewing appears very simple process from where we observe it, however it is anything but that. There is not just one water treatment, there is not even just one water treatment for any particular style, but there are a vast range of water treatments which produce a vast range of beers. Your water is a perfect example of one which will make a good British ale, even if you have only hydrochloric acid. Try it.

 

[user 246304]

OK, I understand. Thanks very much, cire. We creep closer and I'm eager to come back in. Very helpful information as usual.

 

[cire]

OK, I understand. Thanks very much, cire. We creep closer and I'm eager to come back in. Very helpful information as usual.

Good luck, I strongly advise you not to be afraid to stretch the envelope or be persuaded that British ales with high chloride will always taste metalic. The analyses I have of American ales produced in recent times do confirm lower ion content than those in Britain, typically half or less. This week I'll drink some local beers, likely all will be made with 200ppm chloride or greater because most small and medium sized breweries use Murphy's recommendations and products. It isn't totally one sided, just as I suspect it isn't your country. A proportion here make ales with less minerals, frequently with all US hops, often higher gravity, served colder and frequently cloudy, many under the name of Craft.

Another paper from a visit in the early sixties said in the States beer output was 98% lager, served at temperatures as low as 35° F with almost imperceptible palate in many strengths. In Canada it was 50% lager and 50% ales although in the east 90% was ales and the reverse in the west. Canada used less rice and maize as transport costs were much greater than for more locally grown barley, their use an aid to giving the "cleaner" flavour that brewers have persuaded the public they should like. The effect showed up off-flavours and in this type of beer slight differences in processing did surprising things to the final product. It also refers to the softer water used in the process.

Some time ago I wondered why members on British brewing forums with an obviously infected brew began more frequently asking if their fault was to DMS, diacetyl some other normally benign or unlikely scenario. British style beers are highly tolerant by their ingredients and processes to many of faults feared by American brewers. In a more flavorsome drink such faults, even when they do exist, can be imperceptable.

The paper can be found at
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/j.2050-0416.1964.tb01989.x/epdf
I think it's worth reading thoroughly.

 

[mabrungard]

Good luck, I strongly advise you not to be afraid to stretch the envelope or be persuaded that British ales with high chloride will always taste metalic.

Metallic?? I've not heard that. However, minerally flavor with high chloride and sulfate content is possible. Minerally isn't necessarily bad, just different.

 

[cire]

Metallic?? I've not heard that. However, minerally flavor with high chloride and sulfate content is possible. Minerally isn't necessarily bad, just different.

Sorry, not paying attention. Well, I suppose my water could be said to have a minerally flavor, if that is the word, for a borehole into the same aquifer has in the past supplied the market for mineral water.

Some other waters do taste differently, but I suppose the taste in mine compared to surface water could be defined as minerally, although I find it hardly perceptable. Once turned into beer, none of that flavor is there, drowned by the profusion profusion of maltiness and hops blending in perfect harmony. Well they do when served as a British ale should, not with 3.5 volumes of CO2 and at marginally above freezing point.