alcohol content question

[justaguy86]

hi

i was trying to make apple cider and it didn't turn out very well - way too dry.
initial specific gravity (after adding sugar) was 1.072, yeast lalvin ec1118.
by the time the specific gravity had decreased to 1.17 it was already way too dry and tangy - like it had ascorbic acid or something.

maybe the wrong yeast?
also, what would the alcohol content be on a S.G. drop from 1.072 to 1.017?
i'm guessing that since ethanol is roughly the same density as water, it's in the neighborhood of 7% - sound right?

 

[bernardsmith]

Don't know that ethanol is the same density as water but if you subtract your starting gravity from your final gravity you get a figure of about 55 points and that suggests a resulting ABV of about 7% .
To make the cider less dry I would allow the gravity to fall to below 1.00 ( an ABV of about 9%, given your starting gravity) and the stabilize with K-meta AND K-sorbate and then add sugar to a sweetness you like but IMO a gravity of 1.017 is sweet enough to remove the enamel from teeth... The problem may not be the fact that the cider is too "dry" . It ain't dry by anyone's definition if the gravity is at 1.017. The problem may be that the cider has too high a TA . It should be around .65%

 

[justaguy86]

thx for the reply.

yeah ethanol is supposed to be roughly 85% the density of water according to wikipedia. not a whole lot of difference.

i'm new to this - maybe should have posted it in a newbie forum - sorry.

i thought 'dry' meant tangy, lemon-juicey sort of taste.
i bottled it when i did because the longer i left it, the more it tasted like drinking lime or lemon juice.

Not sure what you mean by 'TA'.

maybe it was the mash. i planted an apple tree in the back yard years ago and it makes apples but they're not sweet. i thought i'd compensate for that with added sugar. does starting with slightly bitter fruit make it taste like strong lemon or lime juice?

perhaps i just need a super-basic, simple starter recipe for an easy-to-brew, hard-to-ruin cider.
i'll look for that - any suggestions?

thx again for the help.

 

[bernardsmith]

Hi Justaguy - TA is the abbreviation for titratable acidity - and is determined by the amount of a base that you need to add to neutralize that amount. TA measures the amount of acidity in a wine - not the strength of the acidity.
Dry refers to the amount of residual sugar left in the wine (or cider or mead) after fermentation has stopped. Seventeen points is a very sweet wine. A wine with a gravity of less than about 1.005 is dry.
If you bottle while there is still sugar AND yeast then the yeast does not care that you have corked the bottles and will continue to ferment the sugars. That will mean that pressure will build up inside those bottles and if you have used corks , those corks will pop. If you have used beer bottles and crown caps you can expect the glass to shatter and glass might fly all over the room. Be careful!
A good starting recipe for cider is to go to a local orchard and buy a gallon of apple juice that has not had any preservatives added. Pour the cider into a food grade bucket and add some 71B yeast. Cover with a clean dishtowel and stir twice daily. measure the gravity and when it drops close to 1.005 transfer the cider into a gallon carboy. Allow the cider to age a couple of months and rack every two months for about 6 months. Bottle and enjoy.

 

[justaguy86]

awesome - thx bern.

i didn't know dry meant sugarless - interesting, thought it was a flavor.
about killing the fermentation process - makes sense, i'll stabilize the next batch.

however, isn't it ongoing fermentation that pressurizes the cider with co2 and carbonates it?
i remember my parents making plum cider and bottling it in beer bottles with a bottle capper.
one exploded like a hand grenade a few weeks down the road but the rest stayed intact and it was fizzy like soda pop.

imho, east european champagne is better than the french stuff because it's more highly pressurized.
you have to be very careful where the bottle is pointing when removing the wire harness from the cork.

 

[gregbathurst]

If the apples from your tree are too acidic, you should leave them for as long as possible to ripen, then you can store them for a while and the acidity will drop further. If you have a tree it is a good idea to monitor the sugar and acid in the weeks before harvest. A refractometer in brix is good for the sugar and a simple wine acid titration kit can be bought over the internet to read your TA. (though you need to renew the NaOH every year or so) In cool climates cider apples are often kept for weeks after the picking to allow the starch to convert to sugar and the acidity to drop. A simple iodine test will tell you if there is any starch left in the fruit.

Some apple varieties just ripen very quick and never get very sweet, they are ok for cooking but unfortunately not much good for cider.

 

[madscientist451]

I've done many experiments with different combinations of apples and have concluded that Tart apples like Granny Smith, Ida Red, Northern Spy and others need to be used in a blend. The resulting cider is just too acidic for my taste. This doesn't mean you have to toss your apples or your cider out, you can use them in a blend, or make a single variety cider when they are ready, then store it in jugs and blend it in with other cider you make later in the season.
My favorite ciders the last few years have been 25% Jonagold, 25 % Joanathan, And 10% each Macintosh, Stayman, York, N. Spy and Golden Delicious. Your results with your local apples, the degree of ripeness, the nutrients present in the orchard, and several other factors will vary. Good Luck.

 

[justaguy86]

good stuff - thx guys.

yeast will metabolize both starch and sugar but starch creates more acidity. aged/ripened fruit has more sugar and less starch - gotcha.
i'll look into a refractometer and titration kit.

i did read up on titratable acidity vs pH - good thing i was listening in chemistry class, i think i understand it.
fermentation can create a mix of acids of varying strengths.
TA is a measure of how much base is required to neutralize a given volume of fluid and that depends on the strengths of the acids dissolved in the mix, not the overall pH.
pH measures the concentration of h2 ions, TA is a measure of how much acid per volume of fluid (g/L), correct?
i always knew chemistry would be useful for something some day.

i'm located in southern BC, Canada - lot's of fruit ripening here now, maybe i'll try some different types, get them ripe and/or age them.

good ideas -thx again.

edit:
titration works.
i dug up some naoh and ph strips and tried it.
the ph is somewhere between 3 and 4 now.
and the harsh acid-y taste is gone.

 

[buMbLeB]

i'm located in southern BC, Canada - lot's of fruit ripening here now, maybe i'll try some different types, get them ripe and/or age them.

good ideas -thx again.

Hey neighbour, me too! I just learned a whole bunch about acids and chemistry so thanks - just popping in to confirm that your problem is not sweetness: I routinely make a basic apple cider from generic market apple juice and ec-1118 starting at 1.080 and ending around 1.003 or so, and while it's no longer "sweet" it certainly has some residual sugars and is not sour.

One note - I think you misunderstood someone else's comment about starches. Yeast don't actually metabolize starch; storing starchy fruits such as apples allows their natural ripening enzymes to convert starches into sugars, which is what the yeasts eat. The same thing happens when you leave green bananas on the countertop.

Of course I may easily be wrong, this is just my understanding and my interpretation of what gregbathurst said. Hope it's helpful.

 

[justaguy86]

wet coast - hello

yeah i was thinking about juice instead of mash, maybe i'll try it.
how long do you ferment it?

about the starch content, i looked it up.
apparantly, yeast does metabolize starch as well as various types of sugar.
i've heard of potatos and bread being used in improvised vodka mashes - all starch, no sugars.
check it out:
http://quatr.us/biology/cells/yeast.htm

you're exactly right about the ripening enzymes though.

cheers

 

[gregbathurst]

The problem with starch is that it isn't very soluble so it will just sit in the bottom of the fermenter, also it won't be fermented in cider, it may be theoretically possible but it just won't happen. The presence of starch is an indication that the fruit isn't ripe enough, rather than the starch itself being a problem. As the starch is converted to sugar the flavour will also improve. In a warm climate such as southern USA you won't have much problem with starch and don't need to test it because the fruit ripens quicker, it is mainly a cool climate thing.

TA and pH are both useful, TA is more about the taste of the acid and pH is about microbial stability, the lower the pH the less chance of microbial problems. You can use one, both or neither. In cool climates high acidity is the problem but in warm climates you might get problems with high pH.

 

[ThatITGuy]

edit:
titration works.
i dug up some naoh and ph strips and tried it.
the ph is somewhere between 3 and 4 now.
and the harsh acid-y taste is gone.

Just out of curiosity, how much did you use for how big of a batch?

I'm working on some cider now, same yeast and very close SG. My Gravity reading was 0.994 after 6days in primary. That stuff is crazy fast.. Mine had quite a tart flavour and pretty dry. I want to backsweeten and carb/bottle condition. I'm a bit worried that if I wait the full 2 weeks the yeast won't carbonate.

 

[Yooper]

Just out of curiosity, how much did you use for how big of a batch?

I'm working on some cider now, same yeast and very close SG. My Gravity reading was 0.994 after 6days in primary. That stuff is crazy fast.. Mine had quite a tart flavour and pretty dry. I want to backsweeten and carb/bottle condition. I'm a bit worried that if I wait the full 2 weeks the yeast won't carbonate.

You can wait a LONG time and still get bottle carbonation. Like months and months, so don't worry about a few weeks.

 

[buMbLeB]

wet coast - hello

yeah i was thinking about juice instead of mash, maybe i'll try it.
how long do you ferment it?

I should preface my answer by saying that I'm NOT producing a refined, aged final product. I generally ferment for about a week, or however long is required to drop to 1.004-1.003. Then I rack into fridge-friendly spigot containers and cold crash for 2-3 days, and then I drink it - it never lasts longer than a couple of weeks. All that said, I find it delicious and so do others I've shared it with - fairly dry, apple-y and petillant.

However I HAVE also used the same process to produce a very dry, aged apfelwein, and it's pretty good too, so the system works!

about the starch content, i looked it up.
apparantly, yeast does metabolize starch as well as various types of sugar.
i've heard of potatos and bread being used in improvised vodka mashes - all starch, no sugars.
check it out:
http://quatr.us/biology/cells/yeast.htm

you're exactly right about the ripening enzymes though.

cheers

Today I learned something! Actually I should have known, I recently saw a news article about prisoners getting sick from "pruno" they made from potatoes that was contaminated (botulism I think). Pro tip - don't do that!

Although now I'm wondering what I can make out of green plaintains...