Airlock with Sound?

[wired247]

10 days I'm drinking mine. I don't know how you guys leave them in the tanks that long.

 

[Golddiggie]

10 days I'm drinking mine. I don't know how you guys leave them in the tanks that long.

We have enough home brew already ready for drinking to satisfy us until the batches in primary are ready. Patience is one of the best things you can learn/develop when it comes to brewing.

 

[PseudoChef]

I agree that 6 weeks may be a little long, but sooner than 3 weeks with anything other than a lighter ale, and you are pushing it. The old wisdom about autolysis is exactly that...old and outdated. Generally most people agree that 3-4 weeks is helpful and definitely not harmful. The yeast really needs that time to clean up. Going along with this, as it has been said hundreds of times on this forum...secondaries are really unnecessary and can even be worse off than a 3 week primary, except in certain situations.

Not true at all. It seems this whole "yeast cleaning up after themselves" thing has really blown out of proportion. Yeast shouldn't need 3 weeks to metabolise anything post fermentation. Once fermentation is complete (which should be within a week since you're pitching enough healthy yeast, right? Right.) yeast only need about 2-3 days to metabolise these byproducts of fermentation.

Diacetyl takes roughly 2 days to be rid of (and let's face it, if you are pitching at the proper, cool, temperature that you should be, diacetyl shouldn't be a concern). Acetaldehyde is the same thing - it's a precursor to ethanol, so if you're having too much green apple flavor, you aren't getting a complete and healthy fermentation. Same thing goes with fusel alcohols. If you have a good fermentation, then they shouldn't be there in the first place.

 

[Celticway]

Not true at all. It seems this whole "yeast cleaning up after themselves" thing has really blown out of proportion. Yeast shouldn't need 3 weeks to metabolise anything post fermentation. Once fermentation is complete (which should be within a week since you're pitching enough healthy yeast, right? Right.) yeast only need about 2-3 days to metabolise these byproducts of fermentation.

Diacetyl takes roughly 2 days to be rid of (and let's face it, if you are pitching at the proper, cool, temperature that you should be, diacetyl shouldn't be a concern). Acetaldehyde is the same thing - it's a precursor to ethanol, so if you're having too much green apple flavor, you aren't getting a complete and healthy fermentation. Same thing goes with fusel alcohols. If you have a good fermentation, then they shouldn't be there in the first place.

Yeah, what he said.

 

[Yooper]

Not true at all. It seems this whole "yeast cleaning up after themselves" thing has really blown out of proportion. Yeast shouldn't need 3 weeks to metabolise anything post fermentation. Once fermentation is complete (which should be within a week since you're pitching enough healthy yeast, right? Right.) yeast only need about 2-3 days to metabolise these byproducts of fermentation.

Diacetyl takes roughly 2 days to be rid of (and let's face it, if you are pitching at the proper, cool, temperature that you should be, diacetyl shouldn't be a concern). Acetaldehyde is the same thing - it's a precursor to ethanol, so if you're having too much green apple flavor, you aren't getting a complete and healthy fermentation. Same thing goes with fusel alcohols. If you have a good fermentation, then they shouldn't be there in the first place.

I agree with this wholely! I feel like I'm the only one saying it around here, but it seems like we've gone from "Get the beer off of the yeast by day three!!!" to "Leave the beer for at least a month on the yeast!"

Neither is necessarily the best practice, although I don't see much harm in leaving the beer in an extended primary.

But a well made ale is easily packaged by day 14-20, and with good results. The yeast "cleaning up after itself" is easily done by day 3 after FG is reached. I do like to wait for some clarity, as I like having less sediment in the bottle. But I routinely package beers at week 2.

 

[wired247]

Being patient just ties up your fermenters for an extended period for no particular reason. Ales up to 1.060 or more should be done fermenting with most yeast strains in 5-7 days at 68 degrees and with a good flocculant yeast should be ready for transfer to the bright tank within a few days after. I can remember precious few ales I ran commercially that spent more than 12 days from grain to bottle. If it took that long there was a serious problem with the yeast strain.

 

[JKoravos]

Not true at all. It seems this whole "yeast cleaning up after themselves" thing has really blown out of proportion. Yeast shouldn't need 3 weeks to metabolise anything post fermentation. Once fermentation is complete (which should be within a week since you're pitching enough healthy yeast, right? Right.) yeast only need about 2-3 days to metabolise these byproducts of fermentation.

Diacetyl takes roughly 2 days to be rid of (and let's face it, if you are pitching at the proper, cool, temperature that you should be, diacetyl shouldn't be a concern). Acetaldehyde is the same thing - it's a precursor to ethanol, so if you're having too much green apple flavor, you aren't getting a complete and healthy fermentation. Same thing goes with fusel alcohols. If you have a good fermentation, then they shouldn't be there in the first place.

Not to mention the fact that even if you did transfer your beer after 5-7 days, there will be plenty of yeast still suspended in the beer to take care of any extended 'cleaning up' that needs to be done.

I don't want to get in a flame war about autolysis, but a member on another forum I frequent works in the lab at a VERY large craft brewer. They do tastings on the beers after sitting on yeast at different intervals. According to him people can taste autolysis flavors after 1 week and it is very prominent after 4 weeks. Now, these are trained people, so they probably taste things most of us don't and they are tasting beers that they taste every day so they can pick up minute differences. But I certainly believe him if he says it.

There's a big difference between 'no secondary' and leaving your beer in primary for 4-6 weeks. I'm sure it's OK to leave it there 4-6 weeks, assuming your process is fine, but I'd bet a qualified beer judge could pick up more off flavors in the beer that's been in primary 6 vs. 2 weeks.

For people leaving their beer in primary 3+ weeks, I'd suggest pulling some off and bottling it after the gravity stabilizes+3days, then compare it to the stuff in there for the extended primary. If it's taking longer than 2 weeks for you to reach FG for virtually any beer under 1.100, you need to look at your process.

 

[PseudoChef]

I don't want to get in a flame war about autolysis, but a member on another forum I frequent works in the lab at a VERY large craft brewer. They do tastings on the beers after sitting on yeast at different intervals. According to him people can taste autolysis flavors after 1 week and it is very prominent after 4 weeks. Now, these are trained people, so they probably taste things most of us don't and they are tasting beers that they taste every day so they can pick up minute differences. But I certainly believe him if he says it.

I'm not saying anything about autolysis or that leaving your beer in the primary is bad. It's not. I've done it myself when I have a backlog (and like Yooper, I don't secondary either - just right to keg). I'm simply saying that it's not as necessary as people are now led to believe.

Autolysis doesn't happen that quickly on a homebrew scale, though. Production breweries make multiple barrels of beer at a time, and generally ferment in cylindroconical fermentors. The geometry of the fermentor coupled with the added pressure on the yeast builds heat much easier than the flat coating and surface exposed yeast that occurs in a carboy or bucket. Even conicals on a homebrew scale don't generate enough pressure to build up heat that significant.

tl;dr: Autolysis is a concern in commercial production, but not often in homebrew.

 

[wired247]

There is no heat retained in a commercial cylindroconical vessel. Temperature is maintained with a chilled glycol jacket at whatever set point the brewer or cellarmaster want. For an ale its typically 66-68 degrees and a cold crash at 5-7 days with 2-4 days before filtering to bright.

 

[utopeya]

I think the point is that, even if the temperature of the vessel is maintained, there's a big cone of yeast sitting at the bottom of the vessel. The yeast in the middle of the cone are going to be generating their own heat and so are going to be significantly warmer than anything else in the vessel.

 

[wired247]

That yeast doesnt really drop until it nears terminal gravity at which time the yeast are struggling to survive on the remaining sugars . Within a few days after that it gets crash chilled and the yeast cake compacts. There really is no time when there is a warm cake of yeast sitting on the bottom. With convection currents and the yeast producing CO2 and swirling all over the place I seriously doubt there are more than a few degrees of temperature difference throughout the vessel at any time.

Ive probably produced 600,000-700,000 barrels of beer as a cellarmaster in a good sized micro brewery and millions more in a big-ish regional medium large brewery. Ive never seen hot spots that would be sources of autolysis. If anything is going to cause yeast derived off flavors in a brewery its going to be mutations in the yeast from too many generations of use and excessive washing.

 

[JKoravos]

I'm not saying anything about autolysis or that leaving your beer in the primary is bad. It's not. I've done it myself when I have a backlog (and like Yooper, I don't secondary either - just right to keg). I'm simply saying that it's not as necessary as people are now led to believe.

Autolysis doesn't happen that quickly on a homebrew scale, though. Production breweries make multiple barrels of beer at a time, and generally ferment in cylindroconical fermentors. The geometry of the fermentor coupled with the added pressure on the yeast builds heat much easier than the flat coating and surface exposed yeast that occurs in a carboy or bucket. Even conicals on a homebrew scale don't generate enough pressure to build up heat that significant.

tl;dr: Autolysis is a concern in commercial production, but not often in homebrew.

I think the point is that, even if the temperature of the vessel is maintained, there's a big cone of yeast sitting at the bottom of the vessel. The yeast in the middle of the cone are going to be generating their own heat and so are going to be significantly warmer than anything else in the vessel.

Two points. One, the brewer in question has multiple cooling zones on their fermenters so they can keep the yeast in the cone cooler. Two, the taste testing was done on bottled beer that had been bottled conditioned. They take the beer out of the primary within a few days.

I don't believe homebrewers with good practices need to worry about autolysis, but I also don't believe it's not a factor at all. Homebrewers who are striving to achieve quality and control of a commercial level brewery need to at least know it's there.

 

[Boleslaus]

Not true at all. It seems this whole "yeast cleaning up after themselves" thing has really blown out of proportion. Yeast shouldn't need 3 weeks to metabolise anything post fermentation. Once fermentation is complete (which should be within a week since you're pitching enough healthy yeast, right? Right.) yeast only need about 2-3 days to metabolise these byproducts of fermentation.

Diacetyl takes roughly 2 days to be rid of (and let's face it, if you are pitching at the proper, cool, temperature that you should be, diacetyl shouldn't be a concern). Acetaldehyde is the same thing - it's a precursor to ethanol, so if you're having too much green apple flavor, you aren't getting a complete and healthy fermentation. Same thing goes with fusel alcohols. If you have a good fermentation, then they shouldn't be there in the first place.

Well I'm still fairly new (1 year). I understand that the autolysis thing isn't as big of a deal as some people say. But I guess just from reading this forum, I always thought that beer needed 3 weeks.

 

[JKoravos]

But I guess just from reading this forum, I always thought that beer needed 3 weeks.

Nope.

 

[wired247]

My last few 1.060-1.074 beers were completely finished in under a week ( 5 days on one ) and were in the serving kegs in 10-11 days. Lots of O2 in the wort and a 4-6 hour yeast starter in the same gravity wort the yeast will get pitched into and it will take off roaring.

 

[Boleslaus]

Nope.

Well I've been reading this forum for quite a while now, and its generally 3 to 1 in favor of 3+ weeks. I've been more in the 2-4 crowd.

 

[Yooper]

Well I'm still fairly new (1 year). I understand that the autolysis thing isn't as big of a deal as some people say. But I guess just from reading this forum, I always thought that beer needed 3 weeks.

Nope.

Right. Beer NEEDS a few days to ferment out, and you get better beer if it gets a day or two to digest some of its own waste products. I like it better if it's had some time to clarify.

But a well-made beer never need to be in primary more than about 7-14 days.

Well I've been reading this forum for quite a while now, and its generally 3 to 1 in favor of 3+ weeks. I've been more in the 2-4 crowd.

I doubt that it really is a 3-1 margin in favor of 3+ weeks. I'd say it's just a very vocal minority.

 

[Boleslaus]

I like it better if it's had some time to clarify.

I guess that's why I've been leaving it in longer.

 

[Accidic]

I'm gonna hook a duck call up to mine.

I used a paper horn with the little roll up end torn off before to the delight of my daughter. They fit perfectly/snug on the end of an S style bubbler with no modifications. I always use cheap rockgut vodka to fill the airlock anyway so I figure if anything came off the horn it would be killed by the vodka. Anyway, it sounded like we had a dying duck for the first couple days and it was just funny (you know, to me and the 5yo... the wife didn't find it funny AT ALL).

 

[Revvy]

I used a paper horn with the little roll up end torn off before to the delight of my daughter. They fit perfectly/snug on the end of an S style bubbler with no modifications. I always use cheap rockgut vodka to fill the airlock anyway so I figure if anything came off the horn it would be killed by the vodka. Anyway, it sounded like we had a dying duck for the first couple days and it was just funny (you know, to me and the 5yo... the wife didn't find it funny AT ALL).

oooh. You have to brew an ordinary bitter and use burton ale yeast that will sound like a flock of ducks coming in for a landing.