Aging Sours in Better Bottles?

[simcoe4life]

Yeah yeast and bacteria at the same time in primary is a good thing -- this is what the Wyeast Lambic and the Wyeast Roselare blends are. However don't feel obligated to make a lambic or a flemish red with either one of those though. You can make a nice malty brown ale with a rustic tart note in less than 6 months with Roselare. I've tasted Belgian Stouts primaried with roselare too.

I think you should experiment with both glass and plastic and see what works for you. There are a ridiculous amount of variables in wild brewing, and we as homebrewers cannot even begin to wraps our heads around all of it. We think we have a handle on it but the guys at Drie Fonteinen and Cantillon just roll their eyes...

Even after you've determined the bugs, the fermentation vessel, the recipe, temperature, etc you'll always have another issue to deal with. The key is to just start experimenting as soon as possible, with several batches, and start tasting them after 6 months. You'll be amazed at how much difference one month will make. You'll without a doubt reach your stride and stick to it after a year or two. Make several different batches and mix up different methods on each one, take lots of notes, and make IPA while you're waiting!

 

[smellysell]

I'd highly recommend pitching the bugs from the start, if not before the sach if you want a good amount of sourness. My first sour I did I fermented out with sach first and then pitched the bugs in secondary and while it's pretty good, never got as sour as I wanted.

I've done all my sours in better bottles, but they are all dedicated to sours so I can't really help on that question.

 

[smellysell]

Yeah yeast and bacteria at the same time in primary is a good thing -- this is what the Wyeast Lambic and the Wyeast Roselare blends are. However don't feel obligated to make a lambic or a flemish red with either one of those though. You can make a nice malty brown ale with a rustic tart note in less than 6 months with Roselare. I've tasted Belgian Stouts primaried with roselare too.

I think you should experiment with both glass and plastic and see what works for you. There are a ridiculous amount of variables in wild brewing, and we as homebrewers cannot even begin to wraps our heads around all of it. We think we have a handle on it but the guys at Drie Fonteinen and Cantillon just roll their eyes...

Even after you've determined the bugs, the fermentation vessel, the recipe, temperature, etc you'll always have another issue to deal with. The key is to just start experimenting as soon as possible, with several batches, and start tasting them after 6 months. You'll be amazed at how much difference one month will make. You'll without a doubt reach your stride and stick to it after a year or two. Make several different batches and mix up different methods on each one, take lots of notes, and make IPA while you're waiting!

I want to come hang out in your cellar!

 

[jalgayer]

ok so from what I am gathering, I am essentially going to need to dedicate a primary and secondary to the cause!

I was hoping to only need one... but oh well!

 

[JoMarky]

ok so from what I am gathering, I am essentially going to need to dedicate a primary and secondary to the cause!

I was hoping to only need one... but oh well!

Is the 6 gallon a glass carboy or better bottle?

 

[jalgayer]

The 6 is better bottle.

Can I just throw everything into a 6... both yeasts... And let it ride for a year? Thats too long for a trub right?

 

[smellysell]

The 6 is better bottle.

Can I just throw everything into a 6... both yeasts... And let it ride for a year? Thats too long for a trub right?

That's fine for a sour. The bugs will eat the dead yeast. That's how I've done all of mine since the first on the recommendation of a guy that brewed the best sour beer I've ever had, commercial or HB, and I've had good success with it.

 

[jalgayer]

Sweet. Unless anyone can chime in with a reason NOT to just use one vessel for the whole year and to add both the yeasts all at once... I will be attempting my first sour this month!

 

[Oldsock]

Sweet. Unless anyone can chime in with a reason NOT to just use one vessel for the whole year and to add both the yeasts all at once... I will be attempting my first sour this month!

Not racking will give a funkier character more in line with a lambic/gueuze (which aren't usually aged) than other sours which are usually racked 1-2 times during aging.

The other issue is that unless you top off you'll have quite a bit of headspace (since you need to leave room for the krausen). Not a big deal, but try to avoid opening the stopper too often.

 

[Thakog]

I'm doing a Flanders Red soon from Jamil's Brewing Classic Styles. His recipe just used the Roselare blend, and doesn't even pitch regular sacchromyces. (sp)

 

[simcoe4life]

I'm doing a Flanders Red soon from Jamil's Brewing Classic Styles. His recipe just used the Roselare blend, and doesn't even pitch regular sacchromyces. (sp)

That's the best way to do it.

 

[Oldsock]

That's the best way to do it.

Agreed, although I was pretty sure Jamil called for fermenting the beer out with American Ale yeast first? Did that change in the book?

http://beerdujour.com/Recipes/Jamil/The_Jamil_Show_-_Flanders_Red_Ale.html

 

[Jamo99]

Agreed, although I was pretty sure Jamil called for fermenting the beer out with American Ale yeast first? Did that change in the book?

http://beerdujour.com/Recipes/Jamil/The_Jamil_Show_-_Flanders_Red_Ale.html

I believe the book reccomends only the blend if you want something more like Rodenbach Grand Cru, or primary with sacch if you want it less sour.

I'm doing a Flanders Red soon from Jamil's Brewing Classic Styles. His recipe just used the Roselare blend, and doesn't even pitch regular sacchromyces. (sp)

Thakog, the blend contains sacchromyces. For my Flanders Red I pitched the smack pack in primary, no starter. I did not want to throw the ratio of the blend off from a starter. Fermentation started quick enough. Mine was also based on the BCS recipe.

 

[Oldsock]

I believe the book reccomends only the blend if you want something more like Rodenbach Grand Cru, or primary with sacch if you want it less sour.

Right you are, he gives both options, good to see.

If you only want to pitch the blend make sure it is fresh, I made a terrible batch of Lambic early on when pitching just the Wyeast blend took 4 days to get going. Since then I generally add a blend, plus some yeast from a previous batch, plus some bottle dregs for added acidity and complexity.

 

[jalgayer]

I need to get another bottling bucket for this process. Would it be ok to use THAT for my primary for 2-3 weeks then transfer to secondary in a 5 gallon better bottle? The bucket would obviously be lidded and airlocked.

 

[jessup]

I need to get another bottling bucket for this process. Would it be ok to use THAT for my primary for 2-3 weeks then transfer to secondary in a 5 gallon better bottle? The bucket would obviously be lidded and airlocked.

DO IT! i usually use the bucket for primary of ~ 2 months, then swap to glass, or in your case better bottle. bucket is just not good for a long aging process since too much O2 is exchanged.

 

[simcoe4life]

DO IT! i usually use the bucket for primary of ~ 2 months, then swap to glass, or in your case better bottle. bucket is just not good for a long aging process since too much O2 is exchanged.

I had 10 gallons of lambic turn into nail polish after 9 months in buckets in primary. Don't use plastic buckets! Seriously. You have been warned.

 

[Thakog]

Right you are, he gives both options, good to see.

If you only want to pitch the blend make sure it is fresh, I made a terrible batch of Lambic early on when pitching just the Wyeast blend took 4 days to get going. Since then I generally add a blend, plus some yeast from a previous batch, plus some bottle dregs for added acidity and complexity.

Great advice, and a good excuse to drink some of the commercial examples I've been sitting on for a while.

 

[Oldsock]

I had 10 gallons of lambic turn into nail polish after 9 months in buckets in primary. Don't use plastic buckets! Seriously. You have been warned.

Yeah, sounds like too much oxygen got in. A bucket is fine for 2-3 weeks, but it seems to be variable for long term aging. I ahd a friend leave a Flanders Red in one for 6 months, and it got no off flavors (or sourness for that matter). Maybe the lid of your bucket wasn't as tight as his?