AG Question on Starting Gravity

[douggefreshvt]

I have a question about AG brewing and Gravity. I tried to be as detailed as possible so you guys could have all the information needed to try to offer an opinion. Sorry if reading this is a bit of a chore. Thank you in advance for your help!

Question: My first batch and third AG batch missed the Beersmith starting gravity by big numbers. The first was a Dunkelweiss estimated at 1.076 and came in at 1.034 and the third was a Weizenbock estimated at 1.073 which came in at 1.055. Any ideas about how I can improve this?

Equipment: 10gallon Home Depot Rubbermaid industrial cooler with copper lautering drain and brass valve setup, a 20 qt aluminum pot, a 25 qt SS pot, and a 20 gallon lobster pot with banjo style propane burner. I have 3 6 gallon carboys and 2 3 gallon carboys for primaries.

Important to note that I built the tun between batches 1 and 2. The second batch turned out great, only missed my SG by .002. However batch 3 concerned me.

My theories: The first batch I think I mucked up by using a wine strainer as a muslin bag. I don't think the mash water could penetrate the grains well enough and therefore there wasn't much sugar extraction. I tasted the wort after the boil and it was watered down and terrible. It did yield 5.5 gallons though. It will probably be around 3% ABV which is lousy but maybe good for SWMBO.

The third batch I ended up with A LOT of wort after a 75 minute boil. I racked into the primary after cooling and filled the 6 gallon carboy to the brim. So I grabbed a 3 gallon and racked some off down to the 5 gallon level. Suspect that I did not boil for long enough to pull as much water as possible out of the wort. Would like some confirmation on this from a more experienced AG brewer.

Sidenote: just for fun I pitched Wyeast Bavarian Wheat into the 5 gallons of wort and pitched some washed 3068 that I saved from the Weihenstaphaner Clone recipe below for 1.5 gallon batch in the 3 gallon carboy.

Recipes:
1)
Recipe: Weihenstephaner Dunkel Weiss Clone TYPE: All Grain
Style: Dunkelweizen
---RECIPE SPECIFICATIONS-----------------------------------------------
SRM: 15.2 SRM SRM RANGE: 14.0-23.0 SRM
IBU: 10.8 IBUs Tinseth IBU RANGE: 10.0-18.0 IBUs
OG: 1.076 SG OG RANGE: 1.044-1.056 SG
FG: 1.020 SG FG RANGE: 1.010-1.014 SG
BU:GU: 0.143 Calories: 113.5 kcal/12oz Est ABV: 7.3 %
EE%: 72.00 % Batch: 5.50 gal Boil: 4.70 gal BT: 60 Mins

---WATER CHEMISTRY ADDITIONS----------------


Amt Name Type # %/IBU
7.3 oz Rice Hulls (0.0 SRM) Adjunct 1 3.3 %
4 lbs 9.4 oz Pilsner (2 Row) Ger (2.0 SRM) Grain 2 32.7 %
4 lbs 9.4 oz Wheat Malt, Ger (2.0 SRM) Grain 3 32.7 %
14.7 oz Honey Malt (25.0 SRM) Grain 4 6.5 %
7.3 oz Special B Malt (180.0 SRM) Grain 5 3.3 %

Total Grain Weight: 14 lbs 0.2 oz Total Hops: 0.92 oz oz.
---MASH PROCESS------MASH PH:5.40 ------
>>>>>>>>>>-ADD WATER CHEMICALS BEFORE GRAINS!!<<<<<<<
Name Description Step Temperat Step Time
Mash In Add 5.51 qt of water at 186.6 F 156.0 F 45 min
Mash Out Add 4.41 qt of water at 193.9 F 170.0 F 10 min

---SPARGE PROCESS---
>>>>>>>>>>-RECYCLE FIRST RUNNINGS & VERIFY GRAIN/MLT TEMPS: 72.0 F/72.0 F
>>>>>>>>>>-ADD BOIL CHEMICALS BEFORE FWH
Fly sparge with 3.79 gal water at 125.0 F
---BOIL PROCESS-----------------------------
Est Pre_Boil Gravity: 1.066 SG Est OG: 1.076 SG
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
0.92 oz Liberty [4.30 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 6 10.8 IBUs

---FERM PROCESS-----------------------------
Primary Start: 09/24/2011 - 14.00 Days at 67.0 F
Secondary Start: 10/08/2011 - 10.00 Days at 65.0 F
Style Carb Range: 2.50-2.90 Vols
Bottling Date: 10/08/2011 with 2.3 Volumes CO2:
---NOTES------------------------------------
Made mash 9/24/2011. A lot of grain for my brew kettle to mash. Trouble getting it to boil. Need to look into a mash tun. All in all went well.
_______________________________________________________________
2)
Recipe: Weizenbock TYPE: All Grain
Style: Weizenbock
---RECIPE SPECIFICATIONS-----------------------------------------------
SRM: 12.4 SRM SRM RANGE: 12.0-25.0 SRM
IBU: 20.2 IBUs Tinseth IBU RANGE: 15.0-30.0 IBUs
OG: 1.073 SG OG RANGE: 1.064-1.090 SG
FG: 1.019 SG FG RANGE: 1.015-1.022 SG
BU:GU: 0.278 Calories: 182.3 kcal/12oz Est ABV: 7.0 %
EE%: 72.00 % Batch: 5.50 gal Boil: 4.25 gal BT: 60 Mins

---WATER CHEMISTRY ADDITIONS----------------


Amt Name Type # %/IBU
6 lbs 0.2 oz Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 1 40.0 %
3 lbs 12.1 oz Wheat Malt, Ger (2.0 SRM) Grain 3 25.0 %
3 lbs 12.1 oz Pilsner (2 Row) Ger (2.0 SRM) Grain 2 25.0 %
9.6 oz Barley, Flaked (1.7 SRM) Grain 4 4.0 %
9.6 oz Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) Grain 5 4.0 %
2.4 oz Chocolate Wheat Malt (400.0 SRM) Grain 6 1.0 %
2.4 oz Wheat, Flaked (1.6 SRM) Grain 7 1.0 %

Total Grain Weight: 15 lbs 0.5 oz Total Hops: 2.00 oz oz.
---MASH PROCESS------MASH PH:5.40 ------
>>>>>>>>>>-ADD WATER CHEMICALS BEFORE GRAINS!!<<<<<<<
Name Description Step Temperat Step Time
Protein Rest Add 18.77 qt of water at 132.7 F 122.0 F 30 min
Saccharification Heat to 156.0 F over 15 min 156.0 F 30 min
Mash Out Heat to 168.0 F over 10 min 168.0 F 10 min

---SPARGE PROCESS---
>>>>>>>>>>-RECYCLE FIRST RUNNINGS & VERIFY GRAIN/MLT TEMPS: 72.0 F/72.0 F
>>>>>>>>>>-ADD BOIL CHEMICALS BEFORE FWH
Fly sparge with 1.36 gal water at 168.0 F
---BOIL PROCESS-----------------------------
Est Pre_Boil Gravity: 1.103 SG Est OG: 1.073 SG
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
1.00 oz Hallertauer [4.80 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 9 9.4 IBUs
1.00 oz Cascade [5.50 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 8 10.8 IBUs
_________________________________________________________________

I appreciate your thoughts! Sorry if this is all too much information!

 

[MalFet]

Kaiser has a great efficiency heuristic. Give it a go next time you brew and pull the numbers that he recommends. That way, you'll know exactly where you are losing your points.

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Troubleshooting_Brewhouse_Efficiency

 

[JuanMoore]

Kaiser's site is an incredible resource with some great info, but it's so detailed and scientific that it can be intimidating for someone just starting out.

The volumes look very odd based on the info you provided. Recipe 1 shows doughing in with only 5.5qts for 14# of grain, which is less than 1/3 of the amount typically used. The total volume including the sparge addition after grain absorption and deadspace wouldn't even give you 5 gal of wort preboil. The initial strike volume looks better for recipe 2, but the total volumes don't add up for that one either. With grain losses you would barely have 4.5 gal preboil even if you have zero deadspace. It sounds like that's the recipe where you ended up with 6.5 gal post boil, so obviously we're missing some info.

Another oddity is that recipe 2 shows doing the temp steps through heating the mash, not through decoction or infusion, but based on the equipment you listed I don't see how you would have managed that.

It looks like the info you provided is generic recipe info from beersmith or another brewing program, but what we really need to know is what you actually did, more details about the actual process. How did you dough in, how long did you sparge, how/where were the grains crushed, what were your actual saccharification and mash out temperatures, what were the actual rest times, what were your actual volumes and how were they measured?

 

[KuntzBrewing]

U can boil for as long as you want, u I mean most of my beers have 2-3 extra gallons of wort that need boiled off, boil off rates depend on the surface area of your brew kettle but 1 gal/hr is a good estimate for most, but boiling longer can also effect your color slightly and may carmelize some more sugars, that's for your 3rd brew, but I don't do a BIAB so I dunno about your first AG but it sounds to me like you know what's wrong with both just need more convidence, but like the poster above me said, kaiser is very knowledgable and I've learned a lot from him, but also a lot of brewing is trial and error in the beggining, but soon you will find your method of brewing and then we can make excelent beer everytime!

 

[MalFet]

Kaiser's site is an incredible resource with some great info, but it's so detailed and scientific that it can be intimidating for someone just starting out.

Indeed, but the efficiency worksheet he posts there is pretty much just fill in the blanks.

 

[douggefreshvt]

Another oddity is that recipe 2 shows doing the temp steps through heating the mash, not through decoction or infusion, but based on the equipment you listed I don't see how you would have managed that.

You are correct about this. The way that I heat it up is by adding 200 degree water a little at a time. So what I did in this particular instance is deducted about 1.5 gallons from the starting mash volume and heated it on the stove. Which then gave me the ability to heat to the desired step. However since all of that water wasn't in there for the full amount of time, perhaps that could be part of the reason that there was a watery type flavor and low SG.

Unfortunately I don't do a very good job of keeping track of the volumes I'm using, which I need to improve upon.

Additionally, that is a Beersmith print out but the recipe was designed by me. However I'm too new at this to really know enough about the different mashing steps to lay that out for myself, so I just followed what they had in the brewing instructions with the modification discussed above. Step times and temps I followed the recipe to a T using a thermometer and timer. I crushed the grain at the LHBS with their mill. As far as sparging goes, I poured in the recommended water, let it sit for 10 minutes, then drained. I only did this once.

Thanks for your help.

 

[douggefreshvt]

Kaiser has a great efficiency heuristic. Give it a go next time you brew and pull the numbers that he recommends. That way, you'll know exactly where you are losing your points.

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Troubleshooting_Brewhouse_Efficiency

The other guys were right, it is very intimidating. But I will push through and see what I can get out of it. I really appreciate the suggestion and I will definitely use the worksheet next brew day.

 

[MalFet]

The other guys were right, it is very intimidating. But I will push through and see what I can get out of it. I really appreciate the suggestion and I will definitely use the worksheet next brew day.

Even the worksheet? It's pretty much just measure and drop in the numbers.

The text is complicated, but &#8212; frankly &#8212; so is efficiency. But, if you use the worksheet, you'll have a sense of where your efficiency is going. That's the very first step to understanding your system.

 

[Yooper]

I'd definitely go back to basics for the next batch and skip a protein rest and boiling water additions until you have the basics down.

Your mash water could have been way too little, or way too much, and if your temperature was off or you weren't stirring well during the water additions, you could have been denaturing your enzymes needed for conversion.

As you know, volumes are crucial, both are for conversion and for figuring efficiency.

Next time, I'd figure the volumes by hand and the tweak Beersmith to back you up. What I mean is this- I'd mash with 1.25 quarts of water per pound of grain at the correct temperature (probably about 153 for many beers). Hold that for 60 minutes, vorlauf, and measuring your runnings. Then use the correct amount of sparge water needed for your boil volume, divided into two additions for a batch sparge. That way, you'd have plenty of volume for the sparge, the correct volume of liquid in the mash for proper conversion, and a repeatable process to work on.

There is no need for a mash out when doing a batch sparge.

 

[douggefreshvt]

Thanks. I am definitely going to use these recommendations on my next batch. I appreciate all the feedback.

 

[douggefreshvt]

Even the worksheet? It's pretty much just measure and drop in the numbers.

The text is complicated, but &mdash; frankly &mdash; so is efficiency. But, if you use the worksheet, you'll have a sense of where your efficiency is going. That's the very first step to understanding your system.

Not the worksheet...I was talking about the text. Some of it was a little over my head. However it is all stuff that I want to learn about so it will be a good exercise for me to go through. The worksheet is very straightforward and will give me a great starting point.

 

[JuanMoore]

It sounds like you chose a mash profile from the beersmith menu that was beyond your equipment capabilities and then tried to convert it to a different method yourself. I agree with Yoopers suggestions to use a simple single infusion mash at ~1.25 qts/lb and do a simple batch sparge. The more complex mashing and sparging techniques are rarely neccessary, and until you have the basics down will only complicate things for you.

As far as sparging goes, I poured in the recommended water, let it sit for 10 minutes, then drained. I only did this once.

Did you stir everything thoroughly after adding the sparge water? This is a critical step when batch sparging, as it's how the sugars are brought into solution so that they can be collected. If you don't stir, the sugars all get left behind.

 

[asterix404]

Amt Name Type # %/IBU
7.3 oz Rice Hulls (0.0 SRM) Adjunct 1 3.3 %
4 lbs 9.4 oz Pilsner (2 Row) Ger (2.0 SRM) Grain 2 32.7 %
4 lbs 9.4 oz Wheat Malt, Ger (2.0 SRM) Grain 3 32.7 %
14.7 oz Honey Malt (25.0 SRM) Grain 4 6.5 %
7.3 oz Special B Malt (180.0 SRM) Grain 5 3.3 %

Total Grain Weight: 14 lbs 0.2 oz Total Hops: 0.92 oz oz.
---MASH PROCESS------MASH PH:5.40 ------
>>>>>>>>>>-ADD WATER CHEMICALS BEFORE GRAINS!!<<<<<<<
Name Description Step Temperat Step Time
Mash In Add 5.51 qt of water at 186.6 F 156.0 F 45 min
Mash Out Add 4.41 qt of water at 193.9 F 170.0 F 10 min

So I don't mean to be problematic but there is no way that 1+5+5+1+1 = 14... and that is a huge over estimation. If you used those numbers you used about 11.5LB of grain. Assume you did 4G of strike and sparge water for a single infusion there is no way you would hit 76GP with that. You would have to do a double decoction mash and even then I would think you can hit at most 70 and that is with about 95% efficiency. Assuming normal (70-75%) you should have about 55-60 or something in that range.

You have WAY too little water going into your strike and sparge, it also doesn't say how much water you used in the mash in but it sounds like, unless you added like 3G of water into your MLT at mash in, you really didn't have enough strike water.

Also, if you didn't pre-soak your rice hulls you will loose efficiency there. Rice hulls absorb so much water it's crazy and with the water, it also gets sugar.

I would seriously go back to basics and just do a 10lb single infusion porter, ipa, apa, something like that. use about 3.5G of water for strike and sparge, come out with about 6.5 to boil and boil off 1G. Try to get as close to 54 as you can.