Advice on the move to all grain?

[deano1989]

Hi guys I'm looking to step up to all grain brewing from extract. I have a few questions before I start spending money,
1. Due to my home environment I will need to use an electric kettle, I was thinking a 30l tea urn (water boiler) any thoughts on this?

2.im trying to make my brew day as quick and as mess free as possible also trying to keep equipment to a minimum, my plan is to mash my grains in my kettle in a bag, then remove the grains to a fermenter, then pour roughly 1gal water over the grains in the fermenter for my sparge, then remove grains add that liquid back to kettle and on with my boil.

I know this is a very basic setup I'm trying to keep it minimal and not an all day project as I have young kids so time is hard to find. Would this method give me enough efficiency from my mash do you think?. I was originally going to make a mash tun out of a cool box, but if I can get the same results from this method it seems a quicker and less mess method.
I have so many questions but this is my starting point for now .
Thanks in advance for any advice you can provide, cheers.
Dean

 

[johnstod]

I have just moved over to almost this exact method with a smaller pot (21l) and using a bucket instead of my fv. First brew with it had 72% second had 78% then my bucket leaked and I ended up with 52%.

Make sure you have something to keep the bag off the bottom of the fv so you don't have to stand there and hold it up while it drains. I use a colander. Hope this helps you.

 

[JONNYROTTEN]

First, brewing and not all day project don't go together in the same sentence. Figure at least 5 hours from setup till your cleaned up.
Why not just get a 10 gallon pot if your doing 5 gallon batches and do full volume BIAB.
One pot no mash tun...Mash in pot, pull grain bag, boil, chill done..cant see it getting any easier

 

[deano1989]

Thanks

First, brewing and not all day project don't go together in the same sentence. Figure at least 5 hours from setup till your cleaned up.
Why not just get a 10 gallon pot if your doing 5 gallon batches and do full volume BIAB.
One pot no mash tun...Mash in pot, pull grain bag, boil, chill done..cant see it getting any easier

Thanks, thats what I'm after really so a minimum 10 gal Kettle? If I do that then done not need to sparge the grains?
Cheers

 

[divrack]

you can get powerful and cheap stainless tea urns from china. only problem is they have safety therm cut outs. its pretty easy to bypass them though. just unscrew the bottom and disconnect the thermostat and disconnect the little small safety thing from near the element. wrap everything in tape.
in the interests of safety dont do any of what i just said of course.
Then get an stc100 and a plug and some wire and you can use that as a thermostat to maintain a better mash temp than the one that comes on the kettle. that you have bypassed.

all in this cost me a fraction of the purpose made boil kettle from a homebrew shop and is five times as good and easier to clean as it doesnt have an exposed element.

note. dont put the whole thing in a bath full of water while leaving it plugged in and holding onto it and the tap after a day of brewing and drinking beer.

other note. modern circuit breakers are great.

cant speak to the bag method. i went straight to all grain cooler box method. i can do a full brew with about two hrs actual work spread over about 5 hrs all in

 

[PADave]

Thanks


Thanks, thats what I'm after really so a minimum 10 gal Kettle? If I do that then done not need to sparge the grains?
Cheers

Yep. Get yourself a grain mill, crush your grains nice and fine, and you'll get plenty high efficiency.

 

[deano1989]

you can get powerful and cheap stainless tea urns from china. only problem is they have safety therm cut outs. its pretty easy to bypass them though. just unscrew the bottom and disconnect the thermostat and disconnect the little small safety thing from near the element. wrap everything in tape.
in the interests of safety dont do any of what i just said of course.
Then get an stc100 and a plug and some wire and you can use that as a thermostat to maintain a better mash temp than the one that comes on the kettle. that you have bypassed.

all in this cost me a fraction of the purpose made boil kettle from a homebrew shop and is five times as good and easier to clean as it doesnt have an exposed element.

note. dont put the whole thing in a bath full of water while leaving it plugged in and holding onto it and the tap after a day of brewing and drinking beer.

other note. modern circuit breakers are great.

cant speak to the bag method. i went straight to all grain cooler box method. i can do a full brew with about two hrs actual work spread over about 5 hrs all in

Ive seen some online can' remember the brand name that are specifically sold as home brew electric kettles, do these not have the automatic cut off? I wouldn't mind spending another roughly £30 , if it saves me taking a cheaper one apart to alter the cut off . Thanks

 

[deano1989]

Yep. Get yourself a grain mill, crush your grains nice and fine, and you'll get plenty high efficiency.

I have found a local supplier that bags up grains for you and crushes them fresh to order, I believe you can ask for a finer grind, I assume a finer grind will always ensure a slightly better efficiency? Thanks

 

[RM-MN]

I have found a local supplier that bags up grains for you and crushes them fresh to order, I believe you can ask for a finer grind, I assume a finer grind will always ensure a slightly better efficiency? Thanks

This is a great way to start and it will work out just fine....until the day that it doesn't. Someone will re-adjust the mill or it will become worn and the milling quality goes down and so does your efficiency. Corona type mills are cheap, they work great for BIAB, and taken apart require very little space to store. It doesn't take much to motorize one either.

I mill my grains as fine as I can with my Corona mill. With that very fine milling the grains wet through (gelatinize starches) nearly immediately and conversion starts. That makes the conversion over quickly too so I am able to complete the mash in ~30 minutes. If you are used to doing extract with steeping grains, that's probably how long you would steep them. Also with extract you probably are doing a boil with part of the water and topping up. With all grain you will need to boil the entire wort (not a complete necessity but the normal practice) so it will take more time to bring the wort to a boil. Even with that, I can usually have my wort chilling 3 hours from when I started bring my equipment up from the basement and before the wort is cooled I have everything but the boil pot cleaned and put away.

 

[soccerdad]

Ive seen some online can' remember the brand name that are specifically sold as home brew electric kettles, do these not have the automatic cut off? I wouldn't mind spending another roughly £30 , if it saves me taking a cheaper one apart to alter the cut off . Thanks

Suppliers in the US are using the names Robobrew and Mash and Boil for these urns. They are, as noted, a made in China tea urn used for BIAB style (single vessel) brewing.

 

[mls1970]

My first few all grain batches we're done using the method in this video, minimal equipment and works well, cheers!

 

[mls1970]

I am currently using a cooler mash tun. The method in the video using a bottling bucket to sparge Inspired me to go all grain since the only thing I needed to purchase was a sparge bag. Good luck.

 

[deano1989]

I am currently using a cooler mash tun. The method in the video using a bottling bucket to sparge Inspired me to go all grain since the only thing I needed to purchase was a sparge bag. Good luck.

Thanks to all for your replies, I have so much to consider and I realise every single persons brew day is completely unique I'm just trying to gather enough info so that I don' start off in the wrong direction . So I'm looking to make 5 gal batches of brew all we all agreed that I need to be buying a 10gal electric kettle for my needs?
Thanks again everyone

 

[Owly055]

First of all, I brew small...(2-3 gallons)....... I don't want to deal with 5 gallons, and I like to brew more often. It allows me to experiment more. I'm an advocate of BIAB. There are methods for greatly reducing your brew day........ Don't listen to those who say it must take 4 or 5 hours........NOT TRUE. You CAN produce good beer in well under 3 hours. First off you do not need a 60 or 90 minute boil, in fact you don't need any boil at all. There are many people doing no boil / no chill. With the right technique you can reduce your mash times to 30 minutes, and with modern malts you don't need to boil more than 30 minutes really. The long boil serves three purposes. One is to concentrate your wort for better efficiency. Another is to boil off DMS, which is not the problem it once was. DMS forms at temps "north" of 180, which is why no boil no chill works, but in any case 30 minutes is enough IMHO. Rapid chilling to below 180 is necessary if you boil. Hop isomeration is the third reason...... Max bittering is achieved at about 60 minutes........ But do you want max bittering or max flavor? I often do not add ANY hops to the boil, instead whirlpooling them below the 180 temp. It really is not necessary to chill below about 160, at which point you can put it in your ferementer and let it slow cool. I've gravitated to using whirlpool and dry hopping mostly.... after well in excess of 150 brews. I like hops and hop flavor.
Crushing in advance gives you the ability to break up the brew day..... do it a day or two ahead of time. You can mash and go to bed, or go to work. The temp loss results in the mash stopping before you have an over fermentable wort and a dry beer. This does not reduce the time in the true sense, but it does reduce your actual brew day, as doing the crush in advance does. The thirty minute mash, at least the way I do it is a slightly different techique that involves doughing in at a lower temp and rapidly raising the malt to conversion range, then slowly increasing temp over 30 minutes while stirring fairly frequently. It takes more active involvement

 

[deano1989]

First of all, I brew small...(2-3 gallons)....... I don't want to deal with 5 gallons, and I like to brew more often. It allows me to experiment more. I'm an advocate of BIAB. There are methods for greatly reducing your brew day........ Don't listen to those who say it must take 4 or 5 hours........NOT TRUE. You CAN produce good beer in well under 3 hours. First off you do not need a 60 or 90 minute boil, in fact you don't need any boil at all. There are many people doing no boil / no chill. With the right technique you can reduce your mash times to 30 minutes, and with modern malts you don't need to boil more than 30 minutes really. The long boil serves three purposes. One is to concentrate your wort for better efficiency. Another is to boil off DMS, which is not the problem it once was. DMS forms at temps "north" of 180, which is why no boil no chill works, but in any case 30 minutes is enough IMHO. Rapid chilling to below 180 is necessary if you boil. Hop isomeration is the third reason...... Max bittering is achieved at about 60 minutes........ But do you want max bittering or max flavor? I often do not add ANY hops to the boil, instead whirlpooling them below the 180 temp. It really is not necessary to chill below about 160, at which point you can put it in your ferementer and let it slow cool. I've gravitated to using whirlpool and dry hopping mostly.... after well in excess of 150 brews. I like hops and hop flavor.
Crushing in advance gives you the ability to break up the brew day..... do it a day or two ahead of time. You can mash and go to bed, or go to work. The temp loss results in the mash stopping before you have an over fermentable wort and a dry beer. This does not reduce the time in the true sense, but it does reduce your actual brew day, as doing the crush in advance does. The thirty minute mash, at least the way I do it is a slightly different techique that involves doughing in at a lower temp and rapidly raising the malt to conversion range, then slowly increasing temp over 30 minutes while stirring fairly frequently. It takes more active involvement

, thanks for your input. When you do BIAB for your smaller brews what is your technique for sparging the grains thats a question that keeps sticking with me, I could, with my planned setup, remove the bag from the mash pop it into a fermenting bucket and pour over about 1gal of sparge water would this lead to good levels of sugar extraction? This seems a sticking point with me I can experiment with boil times , I just want to ensure my mashing is actually going to work with the method I intend to use .
I was going to make a mash tun from a cooler, I just thought if I can get the same result from a bag and quick rinse , then it' one less piece of equipment to store and clean on brew day.
Thank you for your help

 

[whiskeyjack]

I also do 2-3 gallon batches. One pot 5.5g, and another 3g. I mash in the smaller pot with a bag, pop it in the oven at 170 and mash for 45-60 minutes or so. While it's mashing I heat sparge water in the 5g pot. Then I lift the grains and do a dunk sparge in the boil kettle. This dunk sparge can be done in a bucket but you have to get it to sparge temps, so I have 2 small pots. From here sometimes I wait until the next day to do the boiling process. Just depends on what's going on with kids etc. So this whole setup is 2 kettles and one bag. You could also do the full volume biab as mentioned

 

[deano1989]

Thanks, is a 30l kettle big enough for a full BIAB , for a 20-23l batch?

 

[RM-MN]

, thanks for your input. When you do BIAB for your smaller brews what is your technique for sparging the grains thats a question that keeps sticking with me, I could, with my planned setup, remove the bag from the mash pop it into a fermenting bucket and pour over about 1gal of sparge water would this lead to good levels of sugar extraction? This seems a sticking point with me I can experiment with boil times , I just want to ensure my mashing is actually going to work with the method I intend to use .
I was going to make a mash tun from a cooler, I just thought if I can get the same result from a bag and quick rinse , then it' one less piece of equipment to store and clean on brew day.
Thank you for your help

Sparging is simply a one word definition of "pouring water over the grains to extract more of the sugars". Yes, you could sparge just as you mentioned. You also could do the same process over and extract more sugars but each time you will extract less until it is a waste of time. I usually do 2 or sometimes 3 sparges to get to my desired volume. If my boil pot was bigger I might forego the sparge and just use a little more grain to get to the desired OG. If you do more than one sparge you get more volume that then needs to be boiled off to get to the right volume to the fermeter so that has to be part of the equation.

Thanks, is a 30l kettle big enough for a full BIAB , for a 20-23l batch?

I've done a 20 liter batch in a 30 liter pot so I know it can be done but there really isn't enough space to be sure you won't boil over. 32 to 40 liter pots give you space for the foam to build up without spilling.

 

[Morrey]

As you can see @deano1989, there are unlimited methods home brewers create to satisfy their own individual brewing needs and demands. Some like an all day "lets get into brewing" thing, while others simply want to make a few bottles of beer the easiest way and quickest way possible.

I had a conversation with a friend last year discovering he was also a home brewer, but he said he was not inclined to brew often since he felt lots of the AG process was a hassle. I ran into him again recently and he said he had bought a Grainfather brewing system and had a new love for the hobby. Honestly, I don't really know a darn thing about this particular system but I'll imagine it suits the needs of many home brewers. Just throwing ANOTHER option out there...LOL.

 

[kh54s10]

I will throw another angle at this. I set up a 3 tier gravity system before finding out about BIAB.
Hot liquor tank up top on a propane burner for strike then sparge water. Cooler mash tun in the middle. and Boil kettle on the bottom tier.

I later tried BIAB and much prefer using my 3 vessel rig. I don't have a good setup for BIAB and do 5 gallon batches. I find it much easier to mash in the cooler without a bag than to have to lift, drain, then clean the bag.

If I work diligently, I can brew in the traditional 60 minute mash and 60 minute boil and have everything out, brew, clean and put away in 4-4.5 hours. I usually take my time and it is more like 5 hours.

Whatever works for the individual is what counts. You may have to do some experimenting until you find what suits you.

 

[parrothead64]

The best money I spent on brewing equipment was $40 for a small dented freezer on Craigslist, $35 for and inkbird dual temp controller and a $ 19 for a brew band heater. I also went to BIAB before I did any of this. I love it but the focus on fermentation made a bigger difference in my beer than the move to all grain.

 

[Owly055]

, thanks for your input. When you do BIAB for your smaller brews what is your technique for sparging the grains thats a question that keeps sticking with me, I could, with my planned setup, remove the bag from the mash pop it into a fermenting bucket and pour over about 1gal of sparge water would this lead to good levels of sugar extraction? This seems a sticking point with me I can experiment with boil times , I just want to ensure my mashing is actually going to work with the method I intend to use .
I was going to make a mash tun from a cooler, I just thought if I can get the same result from a bag and quick rinse , then it' one less piece of equipment to store and clean on brew day.
Thank you for your help

Keep it simple............ That's my motto. Actually most BIAB brewers do a full volume mash and don't sparge at all. Your efficiency may be slightly less, however that is not necessarily so. I've exceeded 90% efficiency at times doing this. In reality a full volume mash will usually hit about the same efficiency numbers as a mash and sparge process, and if it doesn't, the difference in the amount of malted grain needed to hit the desired OG is trivial. The important thing isn't what percentage you hit, it's having a consistent process so you know what your results will be.
When doing larger batches than I have capacity for both grain and water, I will resort to one of two sparge methods. I will either set the bag in a colander above the brew kettle, and using a mixing bowl, make a depression on top of the bag of grain after the wort has drained, and then carefully and slowly pour warm water over all parts of the bag in such a way that it saturates the grain, rather than just running through, and slowly filters through the grain into the kettle. The other method is to dunk sparge by putting the remaining volume of water in another container, and dunking the bag into it, and working it up and down aggressively to get the water flushing into and out of the grain. A little less finicky than the first procedure, but one more pot to wash, and the results seem to be virtually identical. This will allow me to get as much as 5 gallons of wort without a huge brew kettle, but I rarely do it, as I prefer small batches.
When I do no boil / no chill, which I occasionally do, I can do a 2.5 gallon brew in about an hour with a 30 minute mash, including clean up.

The real time saver is kegging. Brew time is only part of the time involved in making beer. Bottling is a chore that involves washing bottles, racking to a bottling bucket, adding sugar, filling and capping bottles. It's a time consuming chore, and the least enjoyable part of brewing. It also requires you to make sure your bottles are rinsed immediately after emptying. Using a bottle brush or flap system on each bottle to remove any of the sediment that gets on the inside is a pain if you use clear bottles as I do when I bottle. With brown bottles, you simply don't see it. The REAL reason people use brown bottles.

H.W.

 

[deano1989]

Keep it simple............ That's my motto. Actually most BIAB brewers do a full volume mash and don't sparge at all. Your efficiency may be slightly less, however that is not necessarily so. I've exceeded 90% efficiency at times doing this. In reality a full volume mash will usually hit about the same efficiency numbers as a mash and sparge process, and if it doesn't, the difference in the amount of malted grain needed to hit the desired OG is trivial. The important thing isn't what percentage you hit, it's having a consistent process so you know what your results will be.
When doing larger batches than I have capacity for both grain and water, I will resort to one of two sparge methods. I will either set the bag in a colander above the brew kettle, and using a mixing bowl, make a depression on top of the bag of grain after the wort has drained, and then carefully and slowly pour warm water over all parts of the bag in such a way that it saturates the grain, rather than just running through, and slowly filters through the grain into the kettle. The other method is to dunk sparge by putting the remaining volume of water in another container, and dunking the bag into it, and working it up and down aggressively to get the water flushing into and out of the grain. A little less finicky than the first procedure, but one more pot to wash, and the results seem to be virtually identical. This will allow me to get as much as 5 gallons of wort without a huge brew kettle, but I rarely do it, as I prefer small batches.
When I do no boil / no chill, which I occasionally do, I can do a 2.5 gallon brew in about an hour with a 30 minute mash, including clean up.

The real time saver is kegging. Brew time is only part of the time involved in making beer. Bottling is a chore that involves washing bottles, racking to a bottling bucket, adding sugar, filling and capping bottles. It's a time consuming chore, and the least enjoyable part of brewing. It also requires you to make sure your bottles are rinsed immediately after emptying. Using a bottle brush or flap system on each bottle to remove any of the sediment that gets on the inside is a pain if you use clear bottles as I do when I bottle. With brown bottles, you simply don't see it. The REAL reason people use brown bottles.

Thanks I purchased my first corny keg last year would never go back now.
Of all the searching I've been soon I think my only option is a 30l kettle so a full BIAB not really possible , I haven't looked at a single recipe yet but I'm curious for a standard 20l 4.5 % beer I could use my 30l kettle for my mash with something like 5gal of water then remove bag and rinse with 1gal of water would that sort of approach roughly work with a 30l Kettle?

Also I have a crude plan to rinse my grains I'm planning on getting an old fermenter bucket drilling small holes into the base of it then once the bag is removed from the mash rest the bucket over the kettle, but the grain bag in the bucket and rinse with 1 gal of water and let it drain out of the bottom of the bucket straight into the kettle for the boil. Am I talking stupid or am I on to something there?? Cheers H.W.

 

[deano1989]

Thanks I purchased my first corny keg last year would never go back now.
Of all the searching I've been soon I think my only option is a 30l kettle so a full BIAB not really possible , I haven't looked at a single recipe yet but I'm curious for a standard 20l 4.5 % beer I could use my 30l kettle for my mash with something like 5gal of water then remove bag and rinse with 1gal of water would that sort of approach roughly work with a 30l Kettle?

Also I have a crude plan to rinse my grains I'm planning on getting an old fermenter bucket drilling small holes into the base of it then once the bag is removed from the mash rest the bucket over the kettle, but the grain bag in the bucket and rinse with 1 gal of water and let it drain out of the bottom of the bucket straight into the kettle for the boil. Am I talking stupid or am I on to something there?? Cheers H.W.

 

[aprichman]

BIAB, full volume mash, spend $10 on a simple hoist.

I'll never go back to a 3 vessel setup. I can leisurely knock out a batch in 4.5 hours including pitching yeast and cleanup.

You can get better efficiency if you fly sparge but it adds on a lot of time to your brew day. I prefer getting a consistent 75% efficiency and shaving 2 hours off my brewday.

 

[Owly055]

Thanks I purchased my first corny keg last year would never go back now.
Of all the searching I've been soon I think my only option is a 30l kettle so a full BIAB not really possible , I haven't looked at a single recipe yet but I'm curious for a standard 20l 4.5 % beer I could use my 30l kettle for my mash with something like 5gal of water then remove bag and rinse with 1gal of water would that sort of approach roughly work with a 30l Kettle?

Also I have a crude plan to rinse my grains I'm planning on getting an old fermenter bucket drilling small holes into the base of it then once the bag is removed from the mash rest the bucket over the kettle, but the grain bag in the bucket and rinse with 1 gal of water and let it drain out of the bottom of the bucket straight into the kettle for the boil. Am I talking stupid or am I on to something there?? Cheers H.W.

I just use an ordinary metal collander which I've made a couple of clips out of aluminum to allow the handles to reach out far enough catch the edge of the brew kettle. Personally I think you are making far too much of rinsing the grains. Start with a full volume mash. Then try the sparge after you have a baseline. Don't bother drilling the holes, just dunk in your bucket. Most BIAB brewers do not sparge of any kind, simply because it really offers almost no gain..... just another process for very little if any increase in efficiency.

H.W.

 

[deano1989]

Id like to do a full mash volume but the limit that my kettle will be is probably 30l cant see a bigger one for a decent price , so I think I may have to top up to full volume by sparging and adding that, my fist idea when I decided to make the move to all grain was to make a mash tun from a cooler , I may still do this at some point I just wanted to start small, get knowledge and confident, then build up from there . Any thoughts on the mash tun approach ?I

 

[JONNYROTTEN]

Id like to do a full mash volume but the limit that my kettle will be is probably 30l cant see a bigger one for a decent price , so I think I may have to top up to full volume by sparging and adding that, my fist idea when I decided to make the move to all grain was to make a mash tun from a cooler , I may still do this at some point I just wanted to start small, get knowledge and confident, then build up from there . Any thoughts on the mash tun approach ?I

Heres a 40L (10 gallon) stainless pot for $70 free shipping...not exactly breaking the bank. Youll be able to do full volume no sparge no mash tun brewing. They have a Triple bottom pot for $100 that many recommend..still not breaking the bank. I have the same pot in an 80L for 5 years that sill looks new...will last forever

https://www.ebay.com/itm/CONCORD-Po...hash=item20fd189049:m:mtYUd2_nVrPUbPevtVpFT6w

 

[Morrey]

Heres a 40L (10 gallon) stainless pot for $70 free shipping...not exactly breaking the bank. Youll be able to do full volume no sparge no mash tun brewing. They have a Triple bottom pot for $100 that many recommend..still not breaking the bank. I have the same pot in an 80L for 5 years that sill looks new...will last forever

https://www.ebay.com/itm/CONCORD-Po...hash=item20fd189049:m:mtYUd2_nVrPUbPevtVpFT6w

I've seen several HBT members suggest this kettle/pot. Good eye.

 

[deano1989]

I would love to go for something like that but I really need an electric kettle