Advice on beefing up a kit?

[HopQuest]

This will be my 5th full-size (5 gal.) extract recipe, so I'm definitely still in the beginner phase. I purchased the Ace of Spades Black IPA kit from Northern Brewer, here are the ingredients:

>9.15 lbs. Gold LME
>0.75 lbs. Midnight Wheat malt (steeping)
>0.65 lbs. CaraMunich III (steeping)

>1.0 oz. Magnum - 60 min.
>1.0 oz. Chinook - 20 min.
>0.5 oz. Centennial - 20 min.
>1.5 oz. Centennial - 5 min.
>1.0 oz. Citra - dry hop
>1.0 oz. Centennial - dry hop

I thought the kit would be a great base to adjust slightly. One thing is I want to get the color slightly darker - some reviewers say it tastes great but ends up being more brown than black. Another is that I want to increase the IBUs close to 100 (Brewer's friend calculator gives me about 80 as is) while also increasing the ABV to 8-8.5% to compensate for the hop addition (brewer's friend calculator gives me 7.15% as is).

My thoughts were to add the following:
>1-2 oz. Midnight wheat
>1-2 lb. light DME
>some combination of bittering, flavoring, and dry hops that fits the recipe profile.

Any advice on how to get the results I want without throwing the recipe way out of balance? Thanks.

 

[h22lude]

Using BeerSmith I'm getting 1.064, 94 IBUs, 35 SRM and 6.2%.

If you want to increase the color, IBUs and ABV I would up the dark malt to 1.5 lbs and increase the Gold LME to 10.5 lbs and increase the Magnum addition to 1.25 oz. This will bring you to 1.074, 98.2 IBUs, 53 SRM and 7.1%. Anytime you up the sugar, you need to increase the hops to get back to your IBUs.

You could also add dextrose which won't add color but will increase your gravity a good amount. 1lb would increase it almost 10 points and give you a little over 1% extra.

 

[HopQuest]

The dextrose is an interesting idea, I didn't even consider that. When I brewed the NB 1 gallon black ipa the recipe included 5 oz. dextrose to throw in at the end, so I could do something similar to that.

When using bittering hops, is it best to stick to one type? I can't find a definitive answer. Say I decided on added 0.25 oz. chinook at 60 min, and using the remainder of the 1 oz. packet for flavoring. Would using multiple bittering hops cause a strange or desirable bitterness?

 

[Jwin]

The dextrose is an interesting idea, I didn't even consider that. When I brewed the NB 1 gallon black ipa the recipe included 5 oz. dextrose to throw in at the end, so I could do something similar to that.

When using bittering hops, is it best to stick to one type? I can't find a definitive answer. Say I decided on added 0.25 oz. chinook at 60 min, and using the remainder of the 1 oz. packet for flavoring. Would using multiple bittering hops cause a strange or desirable bitterness?

It won't make a huge difference, just more perceived bitterness.
Most of the flavor of 60m additions boils out, and what is left will be covered up by all the late additions.

If you are going to use your flavor hops as bittering hops, I'd replace them. You could end up unbalanced.
And gonestly, at 20m, you are still getting decent ibu contribution from them.

 

[h22lude]

The dextrose is an interesting idea, I didn't even consider that. When I brewed the NB 1 gallon black ipa the recipe included 5 oz. dextrose to throw in at the end, so I could do something similar to that.

When using bittering hops, is it best to stick to one type? I can't find a definitive answer. Say I decided on added 0.25 oz. chinook at 60 min, and using the remainder of the 1 oz. packet for flavoring. Would using multiple bittering hops cause a strange or desirable bitterness?

You can use any hop for any addition. Bittering hops do usually have more AA so you can use less of them. Hops used for flavor may have more of a distinct flavor than hops used for bittering but they will all add flavor.

 

[HopQuest]

You can use any hop for any addition. Bittering hops do usually have more AA so you can use less of them. Hops used for flavor may have more of a distinct flavor than hops used for bittering but they will all add flavor.

Awesome, thank you. I think I'm leaning towards something that is commonly used for both purposes, like chinook or centennial.

 

[Gavin C]

Another idea.

Top up the fermentor to 4.5 gallons not 5 and you will up the, OG and ABV. Add a bit more hops for littering to bring that up too.

 

[fosaisu]

You could also add dextrose which won't add color but will increase your gravity a good amount. 1lb would increase it almost 10 points and give you a little over 1% extra.

Dextrose (corn sugar) is highly fermentable, so adding it will bump your ABV without adding counter-balancing malt sweetness. It will give your beer a thinner/drier character, which could be good or bad depending on what you're aiming for. It's not uncommon for stronger IPAs or DIPAs to have a pound or so of sugar in a five gallon batch. I've read that if you're using sugar to bump ABV, you don't necessarily want to increase hops at the same proportion because the sugar won't be leaving residual malt sweetness to balance the hops. So if the only change to the recipe were adding a pound of sugar, you might leave the hops as-is or increase them only slightly to avoid an overly bitter beer.

If you decide to go this route, considering using sucrose (table sugar) instead of dextrose. It'll do the same thing but you need a bit less sucrose since it's slightly more fermentable, and it's much cheaper than dextrose.

 

[h22lude]

Dextrose (corn sugar) is highly fermentable, so adding it will bump your ABV without adding counter-balancing malt sweetness. It will give your beer a drier character, which could be good or bad depending on what you're aiming for. It's not uncommon for stronger IPAs or DIPAs to have a pound or so of sugar in a five gallon batch.

If you decide to go this route, considering using sucrose (table sugar) instead of dextrose. It'll do the same thing but you need a bit less sucrose since it's slightly more fermentable, and it's much cheaper than dextrose.

Sucrose can be used but dextrose is easier on the yeast as they don't have much to break down since it is just glucose. Sucrose is made up of two sugars (glucose and fructose) so it needs to break those down before fermenting.

Same end result just easier on the yeast. Some people say sucrose adds a little flavor that they didn't like. This hasn't been proven and could be all mental. Just something to note.

 

[stonebrewer]

Chinook is a "rough" tasting bittering hop. Magnum is considered a "clean" tasting bittering hop. So if you like Chinook and the flavor it presents, go for it. If you do not want to change the intended recipe much, I would stick with using more Magnum to bitter. I personally love Chinook but some do not...I would probably add a tiny amount of Carafa III to darken the beer if you want it pitch black. A little of that goes a long way toward color.

 

[fosaisu]

Sucrose can be used but dextrose is easier on the yeast as they don't have much to break down since it is just glucose. Sucrose is made up of two sugars (glucose and fructose) so it needs to break those down before fermenting.

Same end result just easier on the yeast. Some people say sucrose adds a little flavor that they didn't like. This hasn't been proven and could be all mental. Just something to note.

I get that sucrose is chemically more complex than dextrose and therefore takes an extra "step" for yeast to consume it. But I don't know how much extra "stress" for the yeast this causes (and more to the point, what if any good/bad flavors are produced by the yeast as a result of this "stress"). And wouldn't the yeast be significantly more "stressed" breaking down the more complex and less fermentable malt sugars, rendering any difference between sucrose and dextrose additions trivial? Admittedly, I know little about chemistry and yeast behavior so I can't add much to this conversation!

That said, I've never noticed a difference in flavor based on having used sucrose instead of dextrose in a recipe, and a quick search on HBT suggests that I'm not alone in this.

 

[fosaisu]

I would probably add a tiny amount of Carafa III to darken the beer if you want it pitch black. A little of that goes a long way toward color.

Another option would be to try Sinamar, which will evidently add serious darkness with very little flavor impact. I've never tried it myself and would probably just up the dark grain a bit, but Denny Conn is evidently a fan.

 

[HopQuest]

All very good discussion and insight - thanks. Now wondering about the fermentation... I was planning on 2 weeks in primary and 2-3 weeks in secondary, per the instructions. But is it really necessary to rack a beer like this to secondary? Or would it be wise to just let it sit in primary for 4? It's not like I'm looking for great clarity in a dark beer such as this. But then again, is it worth getting it off the trub and letting more stuff settle out in secondary?

 

[Gavin C]

If clarity is the reason you are racking to secondary then don't. I don't use them and enjoy clear beer. Rack to secondary if you want, but it is always a good idea to explore the rationale behind doing something. See if it makes sense to you.

Kit instructions invariably advise racking to secondary. I followed these blindly for a few batches. There are a bazillion threads on this topic so have at it.

 

[aprichman]

Have you ever brewed this kit before? If not, I would brew it as is before modifying it. At least then you would have a baseline for what you want to change.

 

[h22lude]

No secondary. This beer definitely doesn't need it (most beers don't). Leave it in primary for 3 to 4 weeks and bottle.

 

[ColdbreakBrewing]

Here are my thoughts:

To get a darker color, try steeping longer (10-15 min) than what is recommended on the instructions. Adding a little more darker grain will help too.

To bump up the ABV, add a pound or 2 of DME. But this will create more of a concentrate, and throw off your IBU's. The more concentrated your wort, the harder time hops have getting into the wort, so you have to compensate by adding more, or if your pot is big enough, you can boil 4 gallons instead of 3 (or whatever your instructions recommend).
If you just want more IBU's, I would just move up the hop schedule on the second addition (chinook) from 20 min to a 30 or 40 min addition.

Chris

 

[fosaisu]

To bump up the ABV, add a pound or 2 of DME. But this will create more of a concentrate, and throw off your IBU's. The more concentrated your wort, the harder time hops have getting into the wort, so you have to compensate by adding more

This may be correct, but I thought the main issue with adding more DME is that it bumps up the residual malt sweetness in the beer, requiring more hops to balance that additional sweetness (i.e. hop utilization could be an issue, but even in a full boil using the hop bill from an IPA while bumping up the grain bill to DIPA levels is going to leave you with a beer that tastes underhopped and therefore too sweet).

 

[DaveCane]

I'm a total noob myself, but I think every NB kit seems to say to use the secondary if you have one, but just to keep it in the primary for another week if you don't.

 

[kh54s10]

I'm a total noob myself, but I think every NB kit seems to say to use the secondary if you have one, but just to keep it in the primary for another week if you don't.

I just looked at the recipe online and it only says to do a secondary for 2-4 weeks.

I would skip the secondary, ferment for 2-4 weeks then go straight to bottling.

I haven't done a secondary for almost 3 years. About 65 batches..

 

[fosaisu]

I'm a total noob myself, but I think every NB kit seems to say to use the secondary if you have one, but just to keep it in the primary for another week if you don't.

Yep, lots of kits (and many books, especially older ones) say that but the majority of HBT members now just leave the beer in the primary until it's time to transfer to the bottling bucket, because there's no real evidence that transferring to a "secondary" vessel makes better beer. Plus it's extra work to do the transfer, and any time you transition the beer between vessels you risk undesirable oxygen exposure. Palmer himself has said as much.

Of course there are expert home brewers (including Charlie Papazian) that continue to swear by the secondary, and they make great beer so I understand why they wouldn't want to mess with their process. But most people here would advise those just starting out to skip the "secondary" phase -- it requires extra equipment and extra work, and presents an extra opportunity to mess up your beer, with no clear benefit.