Adjustment with Distilled Water

[smyrnaquince]

My beers have always had an off taste that I can't solve. I tried using my town's (detailed) water report to adjust the water with Bru'nwater, but I still get bad beer.

1) I am going to order a water report.

2) In the meantime, I am also going to repeat brew my latest batch, but use distilled water.

I will also split the fermentation for this distilled water brew into my usual bucket and into a stainless steel stockpot I have, to test whether my problem comes from the water or the bucket. (I tasted both my pre-fermentation and post-fermentation SG samples and I did not detect this off flavor in either, but this will give me a chance to test out the fermenter.)

My question is: "What should I add to the distilled water?".

The first posting in A Brewing Water Chemistry Primer says to add:

• 1 tsp of calcium chloride dihydrate
• 2% sauermalz
• For British beers: Add 1 tsp gypsum

Note that there is nothing to bring the pH higher.

I don't know the weights of 1 tsp of CaCl2 or CaSO4.

My beer is a Scottish Ale (70/-).
When I put my recipe into Bru'nwater and adjust those minerals to achieve the Amber Malty profile for Sulfate and Chloride (requires 0.37 gram/gal CaSO4 & 0.51 grams/gal CaCl2) but add no sauermalz, my Estimated Mash pH comes out to 5.2, which is low. (And the sparge requires lactic acid to get to a 6.0 pH.)

Question 1: Is the recommendation from the Primer valid?

Question 2: Should I add something to raise the pH?

Recipe:

2.28 gal Mash Water Volume
3.52 gal Sparge Water
4.12 gal Batch Wort Volume

Grain -- Type -- Qty -- Color (L)

Golden Promise -- Base Malt -- 4 lb 8 oz -- 2.6 L
Crystal 40L -- Crystal Malt -- 10.0 oz -- 40 L
Honey Malt -- Crystal Malt -- 5 oz -- 25 L
Munich 20 -- Base Malt -- 5 oz -- 20 L
Crystal 120L -- Crystal Malt -- 2.5 oz -- 120 L
Pale Chocolate -- Roast Malt -- 1.9 oz -- 200 L

0.5 oz East Kent Goldings at 60 minutes

1 pkg US-05 (for my first attempt, I split the batch into two fermenters and did the second one with US-33, 1 tsp yeast nutrient into each fermenter)

157F mash
60 minute boil

Thanks for any help offered!

 

[mabrungard]

Are you doing anything to remove chlorine compounds from your brewing water?

 

[smyrnaquince]

I don't smell chlorine, but I typically let the water stand in an open pot overnight. I can't remember if I did so with that particular batch. My town does not use chloramines.

What would the taste be if chlorine compounds were my problem?

 

[mabrungard]

What would the taste be if chlorine compounds were my problem?

Bandaid, mediciney

 

[smyrnaquince]

I took a couple of bottles to my homebrew club. They detected the off flavor, too. Two of the guys studying for BJCP thought it was a fermentation issue. Then I tried those bottles and found that the flavor was not nearly as harsh as in the ones I had tried at home. We discovered that the off-flavor is varying bottle-to-bottle and now suspect an infection issue at bottling time, either from the bottles themselves or from the bottling bucket or bottling spout.

I did a thorough OxyClean soak of the fermenter and fermenter spout. Before bottling, I will do the same for the bottling bucket, bottling bucket spout, and bottles. Except for the 2 bottles from the nasty stuff I had at home. For those two, I will do my usual process, which is to rinse the empty until no beer odor (already done), air dry (already done), and use a Vinator with Starsan at bottling time. (This should tell me if the problem stems from the bottles themselves.)

Yesterday I did a repeat brew of the same recipe with these changes:

• Used distilled water, plus additions according to Bru'nwater, instead of using adjusted tap water
• Put half the batch in my usual (but OxyCleaned and StarSan'd) fermenter, full package of US-05
• Put the other half in a StarSan'd stainless steel stockpot with lid to ferment, full package of US-05

As mentioned above, I will bottle one of each in the two saved bottles using my usual bottle prep method, putting the rest into OcyCleaned and StarSan'd bottles.

I hope to narrow down the problem to water or bucket or bottle this way.

 

[BrewinBromanite]

Just curious, is the stainless stockpot with lid designed to be a fermenter?

 

[smyrnaquince]

no, but the fermenting yeast will build a layer of CO2 over the wort. I don't foresee a problem.

 

[mongoose33]

You might also look at how you're cleaning your bottles.

Also: If you don't have a spray bottle of Star-San, consider getting one. I spray everything, from fermentor spigot to lid on my kegs to the posts on the kegs before I hook up a disconnect, to the inside of the disconnect before I connect it.

Wally World has small spray bottles in the travel-size, sample-size aisle, at least where I live. The bottles are smallish, which I like.

My Star-San bottles are green, so I can grab them easily from that identifier. I also have one that is blue, that contains water only. I use it to cool down a pending boilover--just spray the hell out of the burbling boiling wort when it looks like it wants to boil over, and lo and behold, it cools it down and doesn't boil over.

 

[BrewinBromanite]

no, but the fermenting yeast will build a layer of CO2 over the wort. I don't foresee a problem.

Really was just curious. Plenty of pro breweries do open ferments, not criticizing at all. So, just leaving a regular kitchen stock pot with lid on? Do you try to seal it in any way, or does the lid have a hole of some sort, or just letting the C02 escape around the lid? I've thought about this as well, which kind of goes beyond traditional HB wisdom. Especially interesting if trying to rule out a possible infection source if not sealing the lid somehow (ie...fruit flies finding there way in). Interested to see your results!

 

[bob1852]

no, but the fermenting yeast will build a layer of CO2 over the wort. I don't foresee a problem.

The gases (CO2 from fermentation and the rest of the air) will mix...

http://chemwiki.ucdavis.edu/Core/Ph...ms/Thermodynamics_of_Mixing/Entropy_of_Mixing

 

[Jwin]

CO2 makes a blanket like Trump makes promises. Broad, yet full of holes and penetrable by any organism consisting of one or more living (brain)cells.

Noye, open fermentations typically occur in rooms designed for it where said fermentation has occurred for decades or more. That micro-biodome of organisms has been thoroughbred to make great beer and suffocated out Manu other bacteria. You kitchen/basement/closet has not

Anyway, I would try a decent filter and Camden treatment first. .02

 

[smyrnaquince]

Well, the split ferment is already in progress, so I'll see how the SS pot works.

As for how I clean the bottles, I mentioned that it is rinse, air dry, then Starsan before bottling. The upcoming batches will add an Oxyclean step except for two bottles with my old method.

I do use a spray bottle of Starsan and spray everything that the beer will touch on the cold side. I also use it to control boilovers.

I appreciate the discussion and ideas!

 

[dyqik]

Noye, open fermentations typically occur in rooms designed for it where said fermentation has occurred for decades or more. That micro-biodome of organisms has been thoroughbred to make great beer and suffocated out Manu other bacteria. You kitchen/basement/closet has not

Also, commercial scale open fermenters are much larger than homebrew ones, and so the surface area to volume ratio is very much lower.

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

The gases (CO2 from fermentation and the rest of the air) will mix...

http://chemwiki.ucdavis.edu/Core/Ph...ms/Thermodynamics_of_Mixing/Entropy_of_Mixing

Came here to post this. Gases mix. In a system that's not semi-closed (can escape, but not get in), you'll have a mixture of CO2 and other gases. Id try a true fermenter with minimal head space and see if that works.

 

[smyrnaquince]

OK, I'm really frustrated now. I bottled the two batches yesterday and I swear that the harsh taste was in both hydrometer samples. (One half fermented in my usual plastic bucket and the other half in the stainless steel stockpot. I felt that the taste was more pronounced in the batch from the bucket.)

I brewed with Poland Springs distilled water (whose web page shows pH of 5.8 and 0 for all minerals), using BrunWater for my water additions:
Mash (2.78 gal)

• 0.8g CaSO4
• 1.2g CaCl2
• 0.7g CaCO3

Sparge (3.53 gal)

• 1.3g CaSO4
• 1.8g CaCl2

The predicted mash pH was 5.36, ColorpHast strip showed 5.0. (I've since read that the CaCO3 probably would not have done anything. BrunWater predicts a mash pH of 5.17 if I delete the CaCO3.)

The requested sparge pH was 5.5.

I split the sparge volume in half and sparged twice. Sparge temp was 168F.

OG = 1.045, FG = 1.017

After aeration, I put half the wort into my plastic fermenter bucket and half into a stainless steel stockpot with cover. I pitched a hydrated package of US-05 into each. I then allowed 3 weeks of fermentation in my basement, with an ambient of 65-67F.

I am thinking that the harsh taste is either tannins or astringency. The wort is also perhaps a bit darker than I might have expected.

Here are the possible causes I have come up with:

• Overcrushed grain. I double crush at the LHBS. When I single crush I get an extraction efficiency around 70%. With double crush, 80%, so I double crush.
• The double sparge. Maybe the pH is too high on the second sparge? (But I wouldn't expect this from the treated, distilled water I used.)
• My brewpot.
  • It is aluminum, but I initially boiled water in it to blacken the insides.
  • I boil on my stovetop, so I have the pot wrapped in insulation to help me get more quickly to a full boil. (I take the lid off after I reach a full boil.) The insulation should help me maintain the full boil, too. It is an electric stove and I keep the burner on high the whole time. Maybe I'm creating a Maillard reaction that is also throwing the taste of the beer off?

In between these two batches, I brewed an IPA (US-05 with adjusted tap water, not distilled) and do not have the off taste there, but maybe I can't taste it through the hops?

I'm looking for ideas.

Thanks!

 

[bob1852]

What was your wort temp when you pitched the yeast?

Fermenting at an ambient 67 could mean fermentation temperatures got into the mid to high 70s, especially if your wort was closed to 70 at pitching temps...

 

[Yooper]

You are correct in that chalk doesn't dissolve without extraneous effort, so it's not a good way to raise the alkalinity in the mash. That's not the cause of this issue, though. If you need to raise the alkalinity a bit, baking soda would be a good choice.

You must have had a ton of dark roasted malts to get a predicted pH of 5.17. Best flavor comes from mashing at 5.3-5.5 as a rule, with dry stouts (which are tart) ok at 5.2 and richer stouts at 5.5-5.6 or so.

Are you using anything in the wort that could do this? I ask because I tried for ages to help a guy, and it turns out he was using some kind of "yeast nutrient" in the wort, perhaps too much, and once he stopped that
it fixed the flavor. So think about anything else that may have an impact on this even if it seems something very small.

 

[smyrnaquince]

The wort was at 67F when I pitched the yeast, as was the cellar I moved the fermenters to. I did get some StarSan sucked into the bucket fermenter from the airlock.

My grain profile from BrunWater is not very dark:

Grains		Grain Type	Lb	oz	Color(L)

Golden Promise	Base Malt	4.0	8.0	2.6
Crystal 40L	Crystal Malt	0.0	10.0	40
Honey Malt	Crystal Malt	0.0	5.0	25
Munich 20	Base Malt	0.0	5.0	20
Crystal 120L	Crystal Malt	0.0	2.5	120
Pale Chocolate	Roast Malt	0.0	1.9	200

BeerSmith predicted the beer color to be 12.9 SRM. BrunWater predicted 12.6 SRM.

BrunWater predicted pH using distilled water is:

• 5.34 with no additions
• 5.17 with the CaSO4 and CaCl2
• 5.36 with the CaSO4 and CaCl2 and CaCO3

So, the mash pH would have been fine with straight distilled water, but there would have been no sulfates and no chlorides.

I used 1 tsp yeast nutrient per fermenter last time and this time, with 2 gallons of wort in each fermenter. I've had the yeast nutrient (generic LHBS, IIRC) in the freezer for a five years. I originally bought it for making cider. It never occurred to me that the yeast nutrient could be the problem.

I forgot to use the yeast nutrient in the IPA I made in April that tasted OK. On the other hand, I did use it in Reaper's Mild that I made in March and did not get this off flavor.

I just mixed some of the yeast nutrient in water and tasted it. I did not have that off taste.

I used 1/2 tsp Irish Moss @ 10 this time, but none the first time I brewed this beer. 1/2 oz East Kent Goldings pellets @ 60 both times.