hotwatermusic
Well-Known Member
Could you possibly have source water variation?
Adjusted pH with phophoric acid, ruined beer!
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gifty74
Well-Known Member
Well, there are two possible sources, but I've been told multiple times that my water only comes from the one. I just got my Ward Labs result on Fri, confirming the source. The other source is much harder, and more alkaline, so if anything that would've resulted in a higher pH. Stumped for sure.
gifty74
Well-Known Member
So maybe this happened: I forgot that my calibration solutions are stored in my garage, and on brew day the temp was around 60F. I forgot to check the temp of the probe when it was in the calibration solutions, but it was probably around 15C (60F). So I calibrated to those 'cool' solutions. Would this have thrown off the calibration & thus my wort pH measurement? I know pH rises as temperature goes up, but I thought this meter (MW102) corrects for that with the temp probe? Help me understand. Thanks.
hotwatermusic
Well-Known Member
I have the same. The temp correction should account for any discrepancies. I'm at a loss myself. The difference in pH between your brewing water and the lab report is the only thing I wonder about. Still pH doesn't tell us everything about the buffers in the water. Head scratcher for sure.
gifty74
Well-Known Member
The comparison of water reports...
gifty74
Well-Known Member
So I brewed up my 2nd attempt this past weekend, in my attempt to get a nice big & bold DIPA that I can brew consistently and that I prefer over almost anything I can buy. I backed off the gypsum from 17g to 10g, and the phosphoric acid pre-dosing from my previous batch of 5ml to 2.5ml. pH was low, as in 5.01 low, after dough-in. So not sure what happened there. Got a new pH meter (a good Milwaukee one) and calibrated it and everything. OG was 1.086 and FG was 1.014 (9.5% abv) with 2nd gen Conan yeast. They did a good job and brought it down. Final pH was 4.2.
Granted last night was only 2 weeks since pitching the yeast, but I had it in the keg and roll carbonated it so I tasted it. Has this same characteristic resin'y flavor to it.
Just not real clean, seems to linger on the tongue, and has almost a sourness to it. I'm trying to figure out what the heck this flavor is!! I changed quite a few things this time from the last, but that same flavor is there that I do not prefer (albeit slightly less). Some things I didn't change: 1.) Used Citra hops in both whirlpool & dry hop, 2.) Although less, used phosphoric acid, 3.) Used Conan yeast, 4.) Did a fairly long hop stand at 170°F for 30 min., 5.) Dry hopped for 6 days. I did have much better fermentation temp control this time, in the mid 60s, up to near 70 near end of ferm. I'm dying to know if its the Citra hops (maybe?) that are giving me this resin'y hop flavor overload that I'm just not liking, or maybe because this flavor is less in this batch from the prior, it's the phosphoric acid? Any thoughts?
Granted last night was only 2 weeks since pitching the yeast, but I had it in the keg and roll carbonated it so I tasted it. Has this same characteristic resin'y flavor to it.
Just not real clean, seems to linger on the tongue, and has almost a sourness to it. I'm trying to figure out what the heck this flavor is!! I changed quite a few things this time from the last, but that same flavor is there that I do not prefer (albeit slightly less). Some things I didn't change: 1.) Used Citra hops in both whirlpool & dry hop, 2.) Although less, used phosphoric acid, 3.) Used Conan yeast, 4.) Did a fairly long hop stand at 170°F for 30 min., 5.) Dry hopped for 6 days. I did have much better fermentation temp control this time, in the mid 60s, up to near 70 near end of ferm. I'm dying to know if its the Citra hops (maybe?) that are giving me this resin'y hop flavor overload that I'm just not liking, or maybe because this flavor is less in this batch from the prior, it's the phosphoric acid? Any thoughts?
It's gotta be the hops! Send them to me and I will alleviate your problem for you!
Seriously, though. Have you thought about sending a few bottles out to other people to taste? I'd be a willing recipient. I can't find anything in your process or ingredients at this point that would make me think something unusual is going on. (Other than the pH being a bit lower than you expected, but I doubt it's enough to cause a major issue.)
Oldskewl
Well-Known Member
Could it be tannins? Astringency?
gifty74
Well-Known Member
That would be awesome! Hoping someone will just be able to pick it out and end this madness. I think it's narrowing down to one of 3 things: 1.) I'm not as big of a fan of whirlpool hopping as most say you should be. Both batches (and my last 5 or so IPAs) have had a substantial amount of IBUs from the whirlpool. 2.) Centennial hops (although my buddy says it can't be that as it's in so many beers and long loved) 3.)I don't like Citra as much as I'm supposed to. Both batches used copious amounts in whirlpool and dry hop. 4.) 2.5ml of phosphoric acid is still enough to make it noticeable.
I'd be glad to send you a bottle though. I'll PM you for your info.
Oldskewl
Well-Known Member
Funny you mention Centennial. I just brewed a Bells two hearted clone which uses all Centennial. I am getting the same lingering bitterness. Trying to pinpoint the issue myself.
gifty74
Well-Known Member
Well then let's all trade up and see if we can make some parallel comparisons.
Centennial and Citra both have lots of citrus character. I highly doubt 2.5ml is enough Phos to be noticeable unless you were EXTREMELY sensitive to it. I don't care for tart beers (or most things in general) and I love both Centennial and Citra. They may be my favorite hops, and especially in IPAs.
In any case, I do think you should continue working with your pH and find a process that gets your pH where you want them to be on brewday. I have personally started using RO water from the store for all pale beers, and lately have been passing up the RO machine at the local grocery in favor of jugs. I'm merely experimenting with the possibility that the machines aren't actually getting rid of all of the chloramine in the water. Although I have also used 1/2 a campden tab in beers made with that machine water, I want to compare flavor with water that is supposed to be Chloramine free.
I think most of my beers have been good in the phenol department, it never hurts to try different things and see if there are improvements that can be made. In your case, the unexpected low pH might be something to continue to work on regardless of the tart flavor you say you taste. And it may just have something to do with it still.
PM me and I can help you ship a beer or two. I know a few guys who would be eager to taste with me and give feedback. We all taste things differently.
In any case, I do think you should continue working with your pH and find a process that gets your pH where you want them to be on brewday. I have personally started using RO water from the store for all pale beers, and lately have been passing up the RO machine at the local grocery in favor of jugs. I'm merely experimenting with the possibility that the machines aren't actually getting rid of all of the chloramine in the water. Although I have also used 1/2 a campden tab in beers made with that machine water, I want to compare flavor with water that is supposed to be Chloramine free.
I think most of my beers have been good in the phenol department, it never hurts to try different things and see if there are improvements that can be made. In your case, the unexpected low pH might be something to continue to work on regardless of the tart flavor you say you taste. And it may just have something to do with it still.
PM me and I can help you ship a beer or two. I know a few guys who would be eager to taste with me and give feedback. We all taste things differently.
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