Adding sugar question

[CMcPherson]

I've learned (I think) that adding sugar during fermentation won't sweeten but rather encourage a drier cider and higher ABV.
Does this mean that adding sugar to a must that is using an ale yeast will force it to ferment to below the 1.004 that is typical for ale yeast?

 

[bernardsmith]

Hi CMcPherson and welcome. Not sure what you mean when you write that adding sugar encourages a drier finish. If sugar is fermentable and if the amount of sugar in the must (fruit juices prior to the addition of yeast) is within the yeast's tolerance for either the concentration of sugar or the potential level of alcohol by volume then any yeast - no matter whether ale or wine (or even bread) yeast, the yeast will ferment that liquor dry. Beer is different only because beer contains sugars that are not fermentable by these types of yeast. So, if you add no sugar to your apple juice the yeast will ferment the cider dry (unless your processes are poor in which case the fermentation will stall or stop). If you add sugar (honey, table sugar, maple syrup, agave ... even (gulp) molasses your yeast will convert the sugars to CO2 and alcohol. It does not care where the sugars come from... You can expect that any yeast worthy of the name "yeast" will ferment your cider to below 1.000 because 1.000 is the gravity of water and alcohol is less dense than water.
What to do if you would prefer a sweeter cider? Brewers would offer a different idea but wine makers all suggest that you allow your cider to ferment to the end. Then you stabilize the cider with K-meta and K-sorbate and then you back sweeten. You can bench test to see how much sugar you prefer to add after stabilization because the amount may depend on the acidity of your cider, its total alcohol content, the richness of the apple flavors and the like. Four ounces of sugar will increase the gravity per gallon by 10 points. That may be cloyingly sweet... or not.

 

[CMcPherson]

Thank you.
What I mean is that I seem to understand that added sugar will prolong the fermenting until it reaches 1.000 or below.
What I am wondering is if this will happen even with a beer yeast.
I am basing what I think I know on this:

(Quote by Looper)
Fermentation:

Your cider will ferment as much as it will ferment. Much of this is yeast strain dependent, as wine yeast will ferment a cider as low as .990, while ale yeast might stop at 1.004. Both have happened to me in the the last year- wine yeast (71B-1122) stopped at .990 and S04 stopped at 1.004. Same pressing, same batch of apples, etc. Just different yeast, with no added sugars.

So, if you are hoping for a bit more "apple cider" flavor, perhaps pick an ale yeast you like (S04 isn't great for beer, in my opinion, but it makes a nice clear apply cider!). If you want to get some bone dry tart "wine" characteristics, choose montrachet or 71B. (71B metabolizes more malic acid so if you've got strongly tart apples, that's a good choice).

Sugar in Cider:

Add sugar, if you want. However, you may want to try a batch sans sugar first, so you have something to compare future batches to. Adding sugar boosts the alcohol by volume, without much flavor at all. It does NOT make a cider sweet in the end!

 

[Maylar]

Ale yeasts are perfectly capable of fermenting to below 1.004. I have had Nottingham take my 1.050 cider to 0.996 and my current cider with S-04 yeast sits at 1.000. Thing is there doesn't seem to be rhyme or reason (to me anyway) why sometimes a yeast will stop before that.

Adding sugar increases alcohol content, which makes a cider taste "different". More winey, less like cider. So there's an alcohol bite to it which I think accentuates the dry-tart effect. A typical cider that starts out at 1.050 will finish with about 6.5% ABV and even that can be overpowering when the cider is young. As you go higher in alcohol you get less apple and more wine characteristic that takes longer to age and mellow.

 

[CMcPherson]

Okay. And here I thought that I was beginning to catch on.
So what can I do to kill the yeast when it reaches 1.004 in order to keep a cider taste?

 

[Maylar]

Okay. And here I thought that I was beginning to catch on.
So what can I do to kill the yeast when it reaches 1.004 in order to keep a cider taste?

Nothing. The yeast will stop when it's ready to. Not adding sugar up front and fermenting cool are your best weapons.

You're entering deeper into the vortex here... read the sticky about different yeast selections for cider. You can affect the final flavor profile somewhat by choice of yeasts.

But finish your first one and catch a buzz first.

 

[CMcPherson]

What about pasteurizing or not quite freezing at 32°?
Surely that will kill yeast. Won't it?

 

[Maylar]

Pasteurizing, yes. Cooling will make them dormant but they don't die. Some people chill then rack and finally filter to get the yeast out but that takes special equipment. The rest of us just let it go till finished and deal with sweetness at bottling time.

 

[CMcPherson]

Thank you very much Maylar. You've been very patient with me.
I'm not trying to be difficult or challenging.
I'm a big picture type of guy and I don't enjoy anything unless I understand the minutia of it.
My first batch is chugging along and I will "just let it go" and then enjoy a cheap buzz but I am chomping at the bit to get my next batches going with an eye toward quality.
The science of fermentation really intrigues me from a culinary standpoint.
I am a trained chef with quite a bit of skill but I have never had a need to give a whit about yeast. We hire bakers for that.

 

[Maylar]

No problem. I have about 20 gallons under my belt and I'm still learning. This forum is a great resource.

Your cider can be quality first time out. Keep asking questions.

 

[Gitmoe]

If you're really looking to understand the finer points of cidermaking here's a tip. Test the YAN pre-fermentation. That's the Yeast Assimilable Nitrogen. More easily stated as "free nitrogen" which yeast will need to complete fermentation. I found through a lot of cidermaking that if a yeast stopped just short of a complete fermentation (anything over 1.000 in cider) it was often due to a low YAN. This issue can be avoided by using a yeast nutrient pre-fermentation. I like to use Fermaid K because it includes lots of good things but you can also just rely on pure Diammonium Phosphate. The little bottles that are typically just labeled "Yeast Nutrient" are pure DAP which will work if your YAN is low. I often just add nutrient without testing YAN as there is little no downside of having too much nutrient in solution during a fermentation. There are huge downsides to not having enough.

 

[CMcPherson]

Thanks Gitmoe!
I'm learning about SO2, nutrients like Ammonium Sulfate, Tannin and testing for acid levels.
I'm also figuring out some of my yeast options so that I can get several different small batches going.
It's a good thing that my tastes lean toward cider only and I don't really care for beer or I fear that I might go right off of the deep end!