Adding isinglass to a pressurised fermenter

[Beer666]

I recently bought a chubby to have a go at pressure fermenting. I added gelatin last week but it's done very little. Beer is still cloudy and undrinkable. I normally use isinglass and it clears in a few days but I was thinking gelatin would be easier in a closed transfer.
Does anyone use isinglass for this purpose? Bit concerned it will clog up. Normally I stir the isinglass into the bucket and it's crystal clear when I Keg. I have used gelatin in the past and it worked but took longer.
Help appreciated as I want to empty the fermenter to try a NEIPA.

 

[DuncB]

I have used both gelatine and super f to fine beers in my fermentasaurus under pressure.

I assume that you got the chubby cold before adding the gelatine? and gave it a good shake / swirl to mix it all up.

How did you put it in? A tpiece and the connectors works well to do a closed injection into your chubby also less oxygen introduced see video for the part I mean. Note here it's being used as a blowoff and yeast capture device early in ferment and would be standing up.
To use this for introducing squeeze bottle to get as much air out as possible. Add finings and flush co2 vent a few times. Attach it to the beer out post and it will fill with beer if pressure less in bottle than chubby. Have your CO2 regulator set higher than chubby presssure otherwise youll back fill your regulator if no non return valve and then add gas. It's best to have the connector on the bottle without the tube and cut the post off short so that when inverted during your emptying phase you get all of your injection product out. Or hold off just short of fully emptying to be really sure that you don't introduce any oxygen ( except that dissolved in your finings).

I have a special pressure introducer also pictured for additions.

Assume that the yeast you are using is a good floccer?

 

[Beer666]

Thanks i think you have shone a bit of light on the problem. I cold crashed for 3 days so beer was plenty cold but i added the gelatine from the gas post via a bottle and carb cap. At the time i didn't think it would do much but i didn't think to shake it. I will give it a go again later and see what happens once i shake it.
Yeast is MJ bohemian and always clears after adding isinglasss in a few days. I never open my fermenters until i add finings and i used to sample a spoonfull then and it was alwasy pretty clear so i was surprised at how murky this still looks.
No idea what hazy lager shoul;d taste like but i presume its not great. Thanks again will let you know how i get on.

 

[DuncB]

I think redose with some more gelatine via the liquid side and give a good shake. Then retest after 48 hours. Use the first splash out of the tube to check the gravity or taste it. Then pour a bit more and see if the next lot any different. Finally beware chill haze the gelatine won't necessarily get rid of that.

I used gelatine and then followed up with Super F for an NZ pilsner that I turned round from mash to bottle for competition in 14 days. Third place so no cigar but I was ahead of another 20 so was pleased.
I do use clarity ferm in the fermenter which helps also with clarity and stability and also coincidentally breaks down a lot of gluten.

 

[Beer666]

Finally got around to doing it today. I couldn't find the gelatin so had to use isinglass so fingers crossed. Gave it a good shake this time so it's nicely mixed.
Do you normally suck up a lot of yeast with the first pour? It would make sense as the sample was murkier than the rest of it looked.

 

[Beer666]

What is super F? Not had any commercial NZ pilsner but made a few of my own and it's a really tasty style.

 

[DuncB]

@Beer666
No I don't suck up a lot with the first pour as I've dropped most of the yeast and trub out as I'm using a fermentasaurus. I tend to do this before I do the fining.

SuperF


Super F is a blended formulation that has been specifically designed for the rapid sedimentation of yeast, protein and other haze forming particles primarily for use in tank conditioned beer.
Benefits

• Rapid action finings to be used in maturation or conditioning tank
• Suitable for beers to be bottled
• Suitable for keg beers
• Low dosage rates
• Super F is stable at ambient temperatures
• Concentrated

Application
Super F is best added during transfer of beer from fermentation vessel (FV) to maturation vessel or conditioning tank.
Rates of Use
This product must be mixed prior to use.
Rates of addition are typically within the range of 0.70ml per litre up to 1.75ml per litre. The exact rate will depend upon whether or not kettle finings have been used, the addition of auxiliary finings, the degree of yeast flocculation, yeast count, pH, temperature (chilling the beer is recommended for optimal performance) and the strength of the beer. Optimisations should be carried out to determine the dosage rates more accurately. If you have used the correct dosage rate the beer should clear in 24 - 48 hours. The sediment should be firm with no fluffy appurtenance above the sediment.
Super F is vegan friendly and meets the German Purity Law.


I'll wait to hear your outcome with isinglass. SuperF seems to work well for me when I use it.

 

[Beer666]

It's definitely clearing now but seems slow. Beer on the left is pressure fermented and 48 hours after adding isinglass. Beer on the right has been kegged for weeks but it's generally close to that when I syphon it from the bucket. I can generally see to the bottom but inevitably pick up some yeast during the transfer.
The pressure fermented beer is a different recipe with corn hence the lighter colour but it now tastes as clean as the other beer.
I am going to try something hop forward next.

 

[Beer666]

I will look into super F. Not sure if it's available to me in the UK in small amounts.

 

[hottpeper13]

A cloudy young lager is a Kellerbier. Not sure if that's spelled right.

 

[Beer666]

Beer has cleared a little more but there is a very faint smell of sulphur. My friend cant notice it but i am sure its there.

I set my spunding valve to 15psi from the start. What do other people do with their lagers.

 

[DuncB]

Put simply

Lager is cold fermented and kept for ages to clear up.
I think you are asking what pressure to ferment a " hot lager " at and it's not as simple as turn up the pressure.
What was your recipe? What yeast? what temp did you use ?

Have a look at the Warm fermented lager thread on this forum
Look at this thread.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/warm-fermented-lager-thread.592169/

 

[DuncB]

deleted

 

[Beer666]

After giving the beer a little longer to clear it has now turned into an excellent beer. I accidently vented it a little as i have a 15psi PRV installed and it seems to have released some of the sulpher aroma. I would say there is more of a subtle hop aroma in the beer than i am used to, hardly any hops in here either. I can definetely see an improvement and have drunk half the beer already. I doubt i will even get around to kegging this.

Recipe was
4kg Bestmalz pilsner
500g crisp flaked wheat
150g acid malt
mash at 62 for 2 hours, mashout at 75c
RO water 1g of gypsum and 15 of calcium chloride
9g Magnum 11AA FWH
10g sorachi ace 11.1AA flamout
OG 1044
FG 1004
Fermentation started at 8c. Went up to 14 after 2 days, then 16c for a week before raising to 18c. Cold crashed after 2weeks

One thing that i did that i could change and maybe would mix the isinglass better is to put it through th pick up tube and not the gas in. Isinglass normally works really fast but i was concerned about blocking the pick up tube as it potentially dried out. I have had trouble getting it off glasses before when its been left a few days to dry. The bottle is below that i used and forgot to wash.

 

[DuncB]

I always use the liquid out tube for injections. The SuperF is a liquid so once introduced into the device for injecting I let beer come up to dilute it and then add the CO2 at a higher pressure to force it back into the beer. Then give the fermenter a good shake and normally the following day a load has dropped.
I will try and get a picture of the " fallout " .

The beer looks good and must taste good as you are crushing it.

 

[Beer666]

I always use the liquid out tube for injections. The SuperF is a liquid so once introduced into the device for injecting I let beer come up to dilute it and then add the CO2 at a higher pressure to force it back into the beer. Then give the fermenter a good shake and normally the following day a load has dropped.
I will try and get a picture of the " fallout " .

The beer looks good and must taste good as you are crushing it.

I see now what your saying now. You inject it into the dip tube, suck a bit of beer up to dilute it then push it back down the dip tube with co2. Then shake. I will do this next batch for sure. I havent had a rice lager for a while and forgotten how much i enjoy them.

 

[DuncB]

You won't need to suck it back up it will gush up if the bottle has pressure lower than your fermenter.
Just make sure your CO is not attached, do make sure you have a non return CO2 valve in that system and turn regulator up to a pressure greater than your fermenter pressure.
Otherwise you'll have fined your regulator!

 

[Beer666]

@DuncB Not sure what on earth i am doing wrong again but i cannot get the transfer going at all. The odd thing is wheni attatch the spunding valve as shown in the photo its does not seem to work. If i release all pressure in the bottle then top its up again with co2 from the top the spunding valve dial stays at zero. If i connect it to the king chubby it goes back up again. Whatever i have tried nothing is moving. Bottle definitely has a lower pressure than the fermenter but nothing is moving.
Last time i remember i gave up and opened it up to add but i dont want to do that again. Unbelievable i have done it before but cant now. I know its not rocket science but i am pulling my hair out. Your assistance appreciated.

 

[DuncB]

I'm assuming finings in the bottle.
Assuming bottle plastic.
Loosen a cap a bit and squeeze bottle to get the gas out.
Reseal the cap.Remove spunding valve.
Check pressure in fermenter.

Top connector on bottle to liquid out of fermenter.
It should fill the bottle with beer. Especially if lower than fermenter liquid

Set CO2 regulator pressure at least 5 psi higher than fermenter pressure.
Double check CO2 pressure is higher.
Keep gas on and then attach connector from regulator to the side red ball lock post.

Finings will be pushed out quite fast to fermenter.
When all in disconnect gas connector.

If some finings left loosen the gas post on bottle and beer will flood back in.
Once full or half full tighten and transfer to bottle stops.
Repeat the Set CO2 regulator step.

You will then have done it.

 

[Beer666]

You wont believe the hassle i have had tring to get those damn finings in the fv. I have to admit i gave up yesterday and opened the thing up. Been brewing today and playing about with all my connecters and realised i have a faulty liquid quick disconnect. Basically the pin does not seem to depress so gas or liquid cannot pass. It was about the last thing i tried, should of been the first. Perhaps i had jammed it on the gas post before and ruined it. Thanks for your help.

 

[DuncB]

How frustrating, I had a gas post ever so slightly loose once. Went to all kinds of efforts and curses about the connector that fitted on the keg thinking the connection was leaking before I discovered the problem.
I was using one of these

https://www.kegland.com.au/ball-lock-tapping-head-to-2inch-tri-clover-commercial-keg-adaptor.html

 

[Beer666]

I have double check my fittings again and now more confused than ever. The one i thought was blocked now seems to be ok but i have realised there is a lot more resistance using the plastic disconnects. How long is the line you use and what diameter?

When i blow into the stainless fittings there is hardly any reasistance so i am thinking all steel fittings would be the way to go. Unfortunately i have lost the seal from my ss carb cap and cannot seem to find a replacement.

 

[DuncB]

I've got both types of connector, i think the plastic ones are slightly better.
How does it work when not connected to the fermenter. ie fill bottle with liquid, screw on the Red T, attach a liquid ball lock to the side connector going to a tube or just a connector with no tube. It should leak out without any gas being injected, it will jet out if you attach gas to the gas connector.
If that's okay then it should inject, purge bottle, add finings, connect liquid of keg to top of T and purge out by loosening the side one until bottle full of beer.
Then disconnect from fining bottle. Invert it attach liquid to the side T and set regulator to a higher pressure than in fermenter. Make sure gas is on. Connect the gas ball lock to the bottom of T connector and the finings will get forced into the fermenter. Let a bit of gas flush in via this at the end to help mix it all up in the fermenter.

 

[Beer666]

Apologies for not replying, misplaced the jumper lead. I seem to have part way solved the problem. I have 6 plastic carb caps and when attached to plastic quick disconnects only 3 work. It looks like the pins in them are slightly lower then the working ones and they don't allow the gas or liquid to pass. I am off to play about with a keg and bottle to see if i can get it to work again,

 

[Beer666]

Finally. Set the keg to 15psi and the bottle to 30psi. Had to regas a few times but it works! Thanks again for your help.

 

[DuncB]

Great to hear, I found a ball lock gas that wasn't working on one keg in the keg fridge the other day. No wonder I'd been having issues.
Made this for cleaning more than one beer line at a time and can also use it to check spunding valve setting / tuning it.

I know that it's a gas connector feeding it but it doesnt matter as I connect it to another yellow connector on the garden sprayer and they are universal.

 

[Beer666]

Nice one. This is pretty handy as well when you want to purge lines.