dirkomatic
Well-Known Member
Can one of you chemistry type people tell me if I could just add some powdered citric acid to Sun Oxygen Cleaner to act as a chelator so there's less/no white scale left behind?
Thanks!
Thanks!
Adding chelator (citric acid?) to oxygen cleaner
- Thread starter dirkomatic
- Start date
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Check out this post, and this thread in general. Good discussion on the topic:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/homemade-pbw-surfactant-ideas-301136/#post3752071
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/homemade-pbw-surfactant-ideas-301136/#post3752071
OP
OP
dirkomatic
Well-Known Member
Yes. I've read that thread and there is good information, but no one actually states any facts about if it's safe and how much to use... It's a bunch of speculation about what it could be....
Im not a chemist, but I did take a few courses. The problem with citric and Oxi is that you are adding acid to an alkaline cleaner, you would need a bunch to make it work.
When I say Oxi, I mean generic. Name brand Oxiclean contains detergent, which we dont need. It just makes everything slippery. Jbaysurfer, good link, but I dont see the need for surfactant. It breaks up fat, but there aint no fat in beer.
Side rant; it makes me crazy that Oxiclean is usually misspelled.
I use PBW as a water softener, it contains chelators, EDTA I believe. Use just enough PBW to neutralize the hardness and when its thoroughly dissolved, add the Oxi.
It depends on your water how much to use, you need to play with it and see what works. My water is 100 ppm alkalinity and I use 5 grams (½ tbsp) PBW in about two gallons. Then use about half as much Oxi as usual.
I find the combination works better than either cleaner used alone and no limescale.
When I say Oxi, I mean generic. Name brand Oxiclean contains detergent, which we dont need. It just makes everything slippery. Jbaysurfer, good link, but I dont see the need for surfactant. It breaks up fat, but there aint no fat in beer.
Side rant; it makes me crazy that Oxiclean is usually misspelled.
I use PBW as a water softener, it contains chelators, EDTA I believe. Use just enough PBW to neutralize the hardness and when its thoroughly dissolved, add the Oxi.
It depends on your water how much to use, you need to play with it and see what works. My water is 100 ppm alkalinity and I use 5 grams (½ tbsp) PBW in about two gallons. Then use about half as much Oxi as usual.
I find the combination works better than either cleaner used alone and no limescale.
Good stuff Wynne-R
OP, I currently use Oxi-free mixed with Sodium Metasilicate, but I do not have a chelating agent in my mix, and with my hard water, I do get scale (if I let stuff soak for more then 45 minutes or so.
I'm going to try Wynne's solution. Regarding "facts" well people have stated that it "can be used" and that some commercial detergents contain citric, so there's that, but the "if it's safe" part I think you're going to be taking some risk on your own there. I wouldn't tell any internet stranger that a certain chemical mix is "safe" and I think actual chemists probably hold themselves to higher standards of care then I do.
Best of luck. Maybe someone else will chime in, but so far, Wynne's suggestion seems to resonate as the most practical for my purposes.
OP, I currently use Oxi-free mixed with Sodium Metasilicate, but I do not have a chelating agent in my mix, and with my hard water, I do get scale (if I let stuff soak for more then 45 minutes or so.
I'm going to try Wynne's solution. Regarding "facts" well people have stated that it "can be used" and that some commercial detergents contain citric, so there's that, but the "if it's safe" part I think you're going to be taking some risk on your own there. I wouldn't tell any internet stranger that a certain chemical mix is "safe" and I think actual chemists probably hold themselves to higher standards of care then I do.
Best of luck. Maybe someone else will chime in, but so far, Wynne's suggestion seems to resonate as the most practical for my purposes.
OP
OP
dirkomatic
Well-Known Member
Right, I mean I remember enough to know that acid + alkaline kind of offset one another and/or cause a bad reaction.... But it seems all chelators are acid of some sort and PBW contains a chelator and is an alkaline cleaner. Does anyone know chemically how that works?
And agreed... Generic "Oxygen Cleaner" is what I'm talking about. There's no need for surfactant of which I am aware.
