Actual Cost Savings of AG over Extract

[UglyDude]

I've been brewing extract for quite a few years. I've enjoyed it and like the beers I brew.
I've long heard about the difference in the price of materials, primarily grains, and how much you can save over extract malt.

However, I've not seen any numbers. For example, 2 of the extract "recipes" I brew regularly are Blonde Ale and Russian Imperial Stout. these are 5 gallon kits and sell for $25 and $40 respectively. These include yeast and hops and a small amount of steeping grains. I brew many other styles as well, but these 2 are on my greatest hits list so I'll use them for comparison.

I already know the other virtues of AG over extract, such as creative control etc and this is one of the reasons I am considering transitioning.

But the bottom line is, how much money would I save if I brewed these using all grain? I'm not trying to calculate down to the penny, but I'd like a ball-park estimate. so, if I brew every 2-3 weeks, about 20 batches a year, how much more or less will I end up investing over the next 1-5 years?

I'm trying to decide if it will be cost effective between the cost of equipment, how long brew days become and savings on materials.

thanks all for many great ideas, tips, and even a few laughs!

cheers!

 

[Roland_deschain]

It is like the speed/power trade-off. Extract will get you there faster, while all grain takes a little longer with your mashing times. The savings comes from the ability to buy grain in bulk, thus lowering your per batch cost. I would think it would be similar with hops.

 

[motosapiens]

it depends entirely on where you get your materials. one useful way for you to compare is simply convert those recipes to all grain (some retailers list the ingredients for the all-grain versions of their kits), and then price out those ingredients at the place you buy your stuff.

but you can save a lot by just shopping better too. There are 2 homebrew stores in my area. one is very close to work, but the other one is literally *half* the price on base malts, and about 2/3 the price on hops and specialty malts.

for example, a bavarian hefeweizen kit from northern brewer is $27, not counting the yeast.

otoh, i pay 80cents/lb for white wheat malt and pils malt (and munich if i want to use it), so about 8 bucks for grain, and another $3 for a 2 oz bag of hops that will make 3 different batches of hef.

so $9 for all-grain vs $27 for extract. pretty good deal.

otoh, if i buy my grain and hops from the expensive place it's more like $17-18 for the all-grain version.


as far as time... that depends. the mash and sparge really only adds 60-90 minutes at most, and much of that is spent just waiting on the mash. I can use that time to prepare other stuff, or I can walk the dogs, drink a beer, etc...

If I do a single-infusion mash, and chill right away (no hopstand), it takes me around 4 hrs from start to finish to do an all-grain batch. Adding in a rest or decoction/mashout (like i do for hefeweizen) adds another 30-50 mins. Adding in a hop-stand at the end like I do for IPA's and other hoppy styles also adds 30-60 minutes.

 

[UglyDude]

It is like the speed/power trade-off. Extract will get you there faster, while all grain takes a little longer with your mashing times. The savings comes from the ability to buy grain in bulk, thus lowering your per batch cost. I would think it would be similar with hops.

Thanks for the response... I am aware of the trade-off, hence my researching the feasibility. that's a great analogy though! ha ha cheers!

it depends entirely on where you get your materials. one useful way for you to compare is simply convert those recipes to all grain (some retailers list the ingredients for the all-grain versions of their kits), and then price out those ingredients at the place you buy your stuff.

but you can save a lot by just shopping better too. There are 2 homebrew stores in my area. one is very close to work, but the other one is literally *half* the price on base malts, and about 2/3 the price on hops and specialty malts.

for example, a bavarian hefeweizen kit from northern brewer is $27, not counting the yeast.

otoh, i pay 80cents/lb for white wheat malt and pils malt (and munich if i want to use it), so about 8 bucks for grain, and another $3 for a 2 oz bag of hops that will make 3 different batches of hef.

so $9 for all-grain vs $27 for extract. pretty good deal.

otoh, if i buy my grain and hops from the expensive place it's more like $17-18 for the all-grain version.


as far as time... that depends. the mash and sparge really only adds 60-90 minutes at most, and much of that is spent just waiting on the mash. I can use that time to prepare other stuff, or I can walk the dogs, drink a beer, etc...

Awesome answer Mr. Moto (do you know that song?)

Thanks for putting this into perspective for me. $18 per batch is a pretty deep discount. at 20 batches a year it works out to $360. that would go a long way towards AG equipment. and Thanks for answering the unasked question of time. I assumed mashing and sparging took longer than that.

PS, I recommend drinking the beer and walking the dog in parallel, not choosing one over the other.

cheers

 

[Weezy]

Plain lme is like $5/lb
Plain base malt is as cheap as $0.70/lb

 

[IslandLizard]

+1 to all the above.

In addition, consider this:
With all grain you can brew ANY beer. Using extract, even with steeping grains or small partial mashes, the range is more limited. For example it is impossible to brew a good Pilsner, Alt, or even an American Lager from extract.

BTW, have you experienced higher than expected FGs with those beers?

 

[giraffe]

And if you buy you base malt (even fancy base malt) in 55lb bags (and the specialty malts at the lhbs bins) and buy hops by the lb from yakima valley hops or similar, and reuse yeast for 3-4 gens, your costs can go way down. to around 10$ for 5 gal of standard strength beer. (not counting propane/utilities)

 

[UglyDude]

+1 to all the above.

In addition, consider this:
With all grain you can brew ANY beer. Using extract, even with steeping grains or small partial mashes, the range is more limited. For example it is impossible to brew a good Pilsner, Alt, or even an American Lager from extract.

BTW, have you experienced higher than expected FGs with those beers?

Thanks Lizard, you are absolutely correct in that there are so many limitations with extract, yet another reason I'm looking into AG. as for FG, I usually hit my FG, it's my OG that varies. Admittedly, I am not a scientific brewer, I suck at taking notes and don't measure as well as I should. I'm the same way with my spaghetti sauce. but it always comes out awesome! both beer and spaghetti

And if you buy you base malt (even fancy base malt) in 55lb bags (and the specialty malts at the lhbs bins) and buy hops by the lb from yakima valley hops or similar, and reuse yeast for 3-4 gens, your costs can go way down. to around 10$ for 5 gal of standard strength beer. (not counting propane/utilities)

Hmmm. this is a nice consideration in the meantime, especially for the styles I brew regularly. I never considered doing this... thanks for the tip

 

[lewandowski46]

If you buy kits from an LHBS or online retailer, basically looking at identical recipes from the same retailer, you save between 5-15 on average for the base kits. You also have to look at it on a percentage basis. If it cost 15 for an AG recipe, and 20 for extract, that extract is costing you 33% more to brew it

 

[Cavpilot2000]

I buy ingredients by-the-batch at my LHBS (no bulk buys), and most of my recipes use 10-12 lb of grain. Add hops and yeast (unless I've saved one from a previous batch to culture), and I usually spend low $20's to low $30's for a batch, with amount of hops being the biggest variable (I think my Treehouse Julius clone cost upwards of $45, but used 16 lb of grain and 9 oz of hops).

But I think the best reason to go AG is the quality, control, and versatility in styes. For many years I was an extract-and-grains brewer and thought I made excellent beer and therefore had no reason to go AG.

Then I tried to make an authentic Oktoberfest and it just didn't do the style justice, so I decided I needed to go AG. My first few batches (a Shipyard Export clone, and a light Oktoberfest) turned out so good and vastly better than any extract I had made in about 15 years of extract brewing that I switched over and haven't looked back since.

With BIAB and no-sparge methods, you can get into it fairly cheaply without a lot of initial $$ for equipment.

Give it a go, and I doubt you'll ever go back.

 

[btbnl]

Imagine making 5G of 1.050 wort. This would require roughly
- 10lb Grain (at 70% efficiency)
- 7.0lb LME
- 5.5lb DME

For an order-of-magnitude cost estimate, let's use the bulk cost at MoreBeer:
- Grain: $38/50lb = $0.75/lb
- LME: $27/9lb = $3.00/lb
- DME: $170/50lb = $3.40/lb

So just the malt for this batch would cost $7.50, $21.00 and $18.70 respectively, or a cost ratio of roughly 2:6:5.

Under these approximations you're saving about $10/batch, or $1000 over 5 years at 20 batches/year.

 

[madscientist451]

I started with all grain and then someone at my brew club had an IPA from an extract kit and I thought it was excellent. So I tried a few extract batches and it was way easier and super fast, but I wasn't really happy with my results. So for me, it doesn't matter how much the ingredients cost, if I don't like the beer, there's no point in brewing.
I brew because its fun. I could work overtime and buy all the beer I want to drink, but I'd rather brew my own I don't really care about the economics.
If you like your extract kit brews I'd say keep doing that and maybe dabble in all grain without spending too much money. You already have a kettle; A $20 5 gallon round cooler from Walmart, a spigot (another $15-20) and a BIAB bag and your ready to brew all grain.
If you decide to brew extract or all grain, getting away from kits will save you some money. Happy Brewing.

 

[ChelisHubby]

I brew a simple Blonde and the 2 row is 1.39 a pound and I use 9 lbs and 6 ounce of cry 10 at 1.99 a lb with 1 ounce of williamette at I think 2.00 a ounce I reuse the yeast 5 times or so. the cost is roughly 1/2 of extract. The flavor tho is much better in my opinion. This beer is usually a 10.54 gravity for 5.4 gallons of finnished product. Now I use a simple 3 vessel system so your brews might be different. I would only do extract if I was worried about time. It looks like you are saving only 10.00 a batch.

 

[MapleGroveAleworks]

Just switch over, take my internet stranger word for it.

 

[khannon]

Plus you can use all the money you are saving by going all grain to justify kegging or buying additional brewing equipment.

 

[Cascadesrunner]

I was spending anywhere from $30-50 on extract buying everything as I need it for a 5 gallon batch depending on recipe. When I jumped to all grain and bought base malts and hops in bulk, it was pretty tough for me to spend more than $25 for anything.

I would only caution you to treat the BIAB as a waypoint and not the destination so don't go spend a ton of money for everything under the sun for BIAB. For me, that was a pretty quick stop in my evolution and after tasting the results I wanted to move on to the next step.

From a note taking standpoint, I had to get better on each one of these steps. I made a number of excellent beers along the way that I could not replicate because of shoddy record keeping! Times, temps, weights, PH, all that matters if you want to be able to repeat the winners and troubleshoot the ones that don't meet your expectations. Some people find that a bit cumbersome, so feel free to disregard if you are just looking to make beer. Happy brewing.

 

[IslandLizard]

Here's another view for you:

How many brewers went from all grain (back) to extract?
Even after moving, and the new place wasn't AG friendly, they'd find a way to mash and boil that lot.

Once I moved from extract to all grain, the whole brew world started to open up. Just the smell of milling grain and the mash, and the hands-on experience, are worth the extra effort IMO.

If you can source your grain in bulk (some LHBSs have programs for that), and it's decently priced, your savings compared to extract would definitely be measurable. Are they worth the extra work and time? Well, if you want to make the best beer you can, it probably is. If you need to take time off from work, it's not.

The quoted DME prices are pretty darn steep, even if bought in "bulk" (a sack). They also charge shipping on sacks, isn't it?

I'm so glad we have a small local group grain buy.

 

[UglyDude]

You guys are all awesome.
I suppose I was writing this question as a way for you all to give me the push I needed and the pushes were strong a valid.

thanks!

I will be moving along and giving it a shot. I've got plenty of buckets, so I imagine I could get started with a beer in a bag trial on the cheap. (notice my quote about the ex wife) but, I expect my finances to turn around soon when the lawyer bills end

Cheers!

 

[Homercidal]

BIAB is a great way to start (or stay) in AG brewing. I sometimes want to brew a quick batch and consider extract. But the price difference is enough to make me want to not do it in the end. I end up doing a smaller batch to save time, or maybe use one of the various time-saving/dividing methods to make a short brew day possible.

Make sure to ask your supply shop to double mill your grains. That way you can get better efficiency. With BIAB you won't have to worry about a stuck mash.

 

[NSMikeD]

I don't know. Ever since I started all grain with BIAB, each time I walk out of my local homebrew shop, ingredients are the smallest items in the receipt.


With greater variables come greater equipment options, but certainly with discipline, one can save money going all grain with BIAB since you are likely to have most of the equipment. You can get carried away with dialing in the variables that one would likely not pay attention with extract kits. But that, IMO, is a matter of personal choice.

 

[millsbrew]

Don't do anything in this hobby for cost savings. It's an expensive hobby. If you want the challenge of AG, go for it. You can always go back. If you are content with the extract batches, then don't make the jump. I used to keep track of my "breakeven" on my investment and that stopped after I started building my eHERMs.

 

[motosapiens]

Don't do anything in this hobby for cost savings. It's an expensive hobby.

that's only true if you are into gear. i'm not, and I have saved many thousands of dollars over the decades by brewing.

if it cost me more to brew than it did to just buy local beers, I don't know how long I'd keep brewing.

 

[UglyDude]

Thanks All,
Now, Off to search the threads for what I'll need in my basic kit to try my first AG batch.

cheers!

 

[DurtyChemist]

To add to this I'd say find out what expensive base malt costs (Golden Promise, Vienna, Munich, Marris Otter) and how much you'd need for a 1.050 beer and compare it to what you'd spend in malt extract. My local shop is around $2-2.50/lb for this stuff. If plane 2-row is all you'd replace your malt extract with its fine but I buy the expensive grains at times. $25 for 10lbs of grain would probably cost more than the same gravity beer in malt extract depending on your efficiencies.

You don't need to compare hops or yeast since those will stay the same. Look at craigslist for igloo coolers to convert and piece things together overtime once you've developed a plan of where you want to go. It's pretty easy to sell an igloo cooler but it might be a little harder to sell a HERMS setup if you want to stick with extract.

 

[TorMag]

And if you buy you base malt (even fancy base malt) in 55lb bags (and the specialty malts at the lhbs bins) and buy hops by the lb from yakima valley hops or similar, and reuse yeast for 3-4 gens, your costs can go way down. to around 10$ for 5 gal of standard strength beer. (not counting propane/utilities)

So where is the cheapest place to buy the bulk base malts?

 

[brewprint]

So where is the cheapest place to buy the bulk base malts?

The only way to really get a deal on bulk grains is if you have a LHBS within reasonable driving distance. I get a 55lb bag of Avangard for $40.

If you don't have a place like that around, you can call a local brewery and see if they'll sell you a bag on the cheap.

 

[giraffe]

So where is the cheapest place to buy the bulk base malts?

Yeah, i live in a city and have a large lhbs and can buy a sack of most things on the cheap anytime i want. Then they dont mind if i bring in the bag each week and use the grinder/ buy my specialty malts by the lb. Id check your lhbs or brew club and see what they offer.

Shipping on 55lbs is going to be cost prohibitive usually, the lhbs is buying a lot and getting straight from a distributor on a truck.

 

[kramer2500]

One other thing, if you want to try BIAB with your current extract equipment with virtually no new expense, you can use paint strainer bags and mash in your oven. You will only be able to do 2.5 gallon batches, but it will give you an idea (see this link). This is what I did for my first ~5 AG batches. As for cost to go full AG, I stalked CL, my LHBS and online sales and was able to buy everything I needed for 10 gal batches for less than $200 (this included a new cooler and new boil kettle).

 

[TorMag]

One thing I am starting to see in this thread, don't get confused, BIAB is all grain brewing, you don't have to go three tier to be "all grain". He comes the chicken and egg arguments.

 

[DurtyChemist]

One thing I am starting to see in this thread, don't get confused, BIAB is all grain brewing, you don't have to go three tier to be "all grain". He comes the chicken and egg arguments.

Eh, I think it's the cost of grain vs malt extract leading the comparison. The only thing you gain from BIAB vs igloo cooler setup is the time it takes to get your return on investment back. A grain bag is a few bucks. A coole, screen, ball valve and fittings take longer.

Pilsner recipe from BYO
10.2 lbs pilsner malt,
1.1 lbs carafoam

vs

7 lbs pilsner lme
1.1 lbs carafoam

21.02 + 2.35 = $23.37 all grain
21 + 2.35 = $23.35 extract.

Hops and yeast will cost the same. For this recipe it's actually not going to save you money to brew it extract vs all grain unless you substitute pilsner malt for something like 2 row.

 

[brewprint]

Eh, I think it's the cost of grain vs malt extract leading the comparison. The only thing you gain from BIAB vs igloo cooler setup is the time it takes to get your return on investment back. A grain bag is a few bucks. A coole, screen, ball valve and fittings take longer.

Pilsner recipe from BYO
10.2 lbs pilsner malt,
1.1 lbs carafoam

vs

7 lbs pilsner lme
1.1 lbs carafoam

21.02 + 2.35 = $23.37 all grain
21 + 2.35 = $23.35 extract.

Hops and yeast will cost the same. For this recipe it's actually not going to save you money to brew it extract vs all grain unless you substitute pilsner malt for something like 2 row.

Wow this is truly nuts.

I can get LME for $2/lb. That equates to $14. 1lb of carafoam is $2. Then hops are $2.35 which is $18.35.

Who else gets LME for $2/lb? Anyone? This is where I used to feel lucky until I found all grain.

Base malt is $.73/lb (pilsner or 2-row) when paying $40 for a 55lb bag which is reasonable. That turns the total to $7.50 + $2 + $2.35 = $11.85

Right there is 40% off.

All grain is hands down a LOT cheaper when you're talking ingredients.

 

[DurtyChemist]

Wow this is truly nuts.

I can get LME for $2/lb. That equates to $14. 1lb of carafoam is $2. Then hops are $2.35 which is $18.35.

Who else gets LME for $2/lb? Anyone? This is where I used to feel lucky until I found all grain.

Base malt is $.73/lb (pilsner or 2-row) when paying $40 for a 55lb bag which is reasonable. That turns the total to $7.50 + $2 + $2.35 = $11.85

Right there is 40% off.

All grain is hands down a LOT cheaper when you're talking ingredients.

How are you going to mill the grain? LHBS allow you to buy in bulk and use their mill? If so this is great. If you don't have a way to mill the grain you'll have to factor in the price of your mill into your equipment costs.

Side note: AWESOME prices for extract AND base malt. If you can find pilsner malt for $40/55 lb I'd be amazed. It sounds like you're using 2 row prices though.

 

[Hoppy2bmerry]

One thing I am starting to see in this thread, don't get confused, BIAB is all grain brewing, you don't have to go three tier to be "all grain". He comes the chicken and egg arguments.

Yes, if you are not using extract, BIAB is all grain.

 

[Dcpcooks]

Malt is cheaper than extract.
Everything else costs more and takes more time
Extract is not less than all grain. a well produced beer can be had regardless .
building a recipe, tasting grain, stirring a mash tun, that's kinda **** cool!

Cheers

 

[brewprint]

How are you going to mill the grain? LHBS allow you to buy in bulk and use their mill? If so this is great. If you don't have a way to mill the grain you'll have to factor in the price of your mill into your equipment costs.

Side note: AWESOME prices for extract AND base malt. If you can find pilsner malt for $40/55 lb I'd be amazed. It sounds like you're using 2 row prices though.

I know that if I wanted to use the mill at the LHBS they would let me. I do have my own though.

Pilsner malt is $40/55lbs of Avangard. $42 for Vienna, wheat, and Munich. Actually 2-row is $38.

 

[DurtyChemist]

I know that if I wanted to use the mill at the LHBS they would let me. I do have my own though.

Pilsner malt is $40/55lbs of Avangard. $42 for Vienna, wheat, and Munich. Actually 2-row is $38.

Damn. Id be using pilsner malt for a LOT of brews. If they will let you use their mill I'd buy a sack of grain, a pound of hops and a vial of yeast and make 20 gallons of beer PDQ. You'd get a lot of learning from brewing four batches of all grain and you'd know in a short amount of time if it's worth it for you.

 

[RM-MN]

Damn. Id be using pilsner malt for a LOT of brews. If they will let you use their mill I'd buy a sack of grain, a pound of hops and a vial of yeast and make 20 gallons of beer PDQ. You'd get a lot of learning from brewing four batches of all grain and you'd know in a short amount of time if it's worth it for you.

If you use the mill at the LHBS you are at their mercy as they may change the setting of the mill at any time and your consistency is gone. If you intend to brew for years to come, buying your own mill will be a money saver and you won't be tearing out your hair trying to figure out how you went from 74% efficiency to 50% and then back to 70%.:rockin: