Achiveve natural carbonation at end of lagering

[Tofek]

Hello,
Did anyone try to achieve natural carbonation in the lagering vessel without applying pressure in the vessel ? I mean by stopping primary fermentation at around 55-60% attenuation, slowly decreasing temp from 9°C or so to 1°C by 1°C/day and then letting the remaining extract ferment slowly at this low 1°C so all the CO2 gets dissolved in the beer and stays there. That's the method of Braukaiser wikipedia, and also original bavarian/bohemian lagering method. I am trying to achieve that, am currently in end of primary cooling down, and was wondering if anyone already tried that ?
My little objective is to avoid refermentation in bottle...

 

[acidrain]

Lots of us ferment in a keg for carbonation and ease of transfer: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=44344
I would say that if your fementation is almost over, you missed the opportunity unless you add priming sugar.

 

[Gavin C]

Hello,
Did anyone try to achieve natural carbonation in the lagering vessel without applying pressure in the vessel ? I mean by stopping primary fermentation at around 55-60% attenuation, slowly decreasing temp from 9°C or so to 1°C by 1°C/day and then letting the remaining extract ferment slowly at this low 1°C so all the CO2 gets dissolved in the beer and stays there. That's the method of Braukaiser wikipedia, and also original bavarian/bohemian lagering method. I am trying to achieve that, am currently in end of primary cooling down, and was wondering if anyone already tried that ?
My little objective is to avoid refermentation in bottle...

It can and is done routinely by many brewers using bright tanks. Your understanding of the process and the interpretation of Braukaiser's description differs greatly from my own however. The CO2 at the tail end of fermentation is captured and retained long before the beer temperature reaches 1°C. Cooling the lager prior to the lager reaching its FG would not be a viable brewing solution*.

It can be done on the home brew scale too by fermenting wholly or impart in a pressurizable vessel(keg) and controlling the pressure and carbonation via a spunding valve.

If you chill the beer to 1C before fermentation is complete the lager will not fully attenuate leaving you with a sweet un-lager-like beverage.

*While it is true that the SG may continue to drop at these very cold temperatures the pace of change is very slow and would be a very small change over time, perhaps 0.001 to 0.002 at most for a very big lager. Not a sufficient rate or magnitude of change to carbonate the lager appropriately.

 

[Tofek]

Hello,
thank you for your answers guys. I am dreaming of kegging one day, but just invested in a Brewpi ferm chamber, so maybe next year.

About the lagering, I cool 1°C/day after reaching 55% attenuation, having done a Fast ferment test as a reference of FG. I think this could avoid shocking the yeast so it doesn't floc and continues to ferment slowly the remaining extract, while the CO2 is better retained in the beer (due to lower T°C). At temps higher than 3°C, the CO2 escapes easily the beer.

Yes it will be very slow as you say, but that's what we call lagering ! Very slow fermentation of remaining extract and saturation with CO2 (along with clarification and maturation of taste). That's why higher OG beers have to lager longer, etc.

BTW, I am sure I can achieve the natural carbonation without pressurising the vessel, since that's what they do in some Czech breweries, as PU.

 

[Gavin C]

BTW, I am sure I can achieve the natural carbonation without pressurising the vessel, since that's what they do in some Czech breweries, as PU.

Simply put, this is not possible.

 

[Tofek]

Simply put, this is not possible.

Mais encore..? Why is that ?

 

[Gavin C]

Mais encore..? Why is that ?

Because your ideas that you are "sure" of violate the known laws of physics governing the observable universe.

 

[Magnus314]

Hello,
Did anyone try to achieve natural carbonation in the lagering vessel without applying pressure in the vessel?

Do you mean catching the CO2 produced from the fermentation of the last few gravity points to carbonate (such as in a sealed keg)...

Or not catching them at all, just lowering the temp and hoping enough CO2 goes into solution at atmospheric pressure?

I can tell you first hand the latter does NOT add anywhere near enough carbonation to really make a difference.

 

[Tofek]

Because your ideas that you are "sure" of violate the known laws of physics governing the observable universe.

Ok then show me the law of physics... I mean I won't argue with you, I worked in a Czech brewery which ferments in CCV and applies no pressure on the beer during lagering. Sometimes it even happened that the beer had to be run through with N2 to get rid of too much CO2 in it, if it had been cooled too early in primary fermentation.

Do you mean catching the CO2 produced from the fermentation of the last few gravity points to carbonate (such as in a sealed keg)...

Or not catching them at all, just lowering the temp and hoping enough CO2 goes into solution at atmospheric pressure?

I can tell you first hand the latter does NOT add anywhere near enough carbonation to really make a difference.

I mean lowering T°C that much so that the yeast is still fermenting the remaining extract, very slowly (like 1°P/month), but the CO2 doesn't escape the solution because at that T°C it can stay and dissolve in the beer. That's the definition of lagering, along with clarification of the beer and of its taste.

 

[Magnus314]

I've had lots of lagers hold residual carbonation, but never anywhere near enough to serve at that level.

More like "a light sparkle" in a cider, or an annoying amount of CO2 to rack, not a full carbonated beer with a good head when poured.

I think you'd have to capture that CO2 pressure at some point to be happy with it.

 

[Tofek]

Ok. I guess that the pressure generated by the beer itself in a CCV already helps to retain the CO2 even if there is atmospheric pressure on top, which won't be the case in a homebrew ferm bucket...Thanks for the input

 

[Gavin C]

Ok then show me the law of physics...


I mean lowering T°C that much so that the yeast is still fermenting the remaining extract, very slowly (like 1°P/month), but the CO2 doesn't escape the solution because at that T°C it can stay and dissolve in the beer. That's the definition of lagering, along with clarification of the beer and of its taste.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_of_thermodynamics

That should get you started on things like entropy and work etc.

On to this less fundamental (for want of a better term) law after that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boyle's_law

And finaly some great information on lager fermentation. The actual process and not your interpretation of it which to put it bluntly, is completely wrong.

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Fermenting_Lagers

And finally even more specific.

Lager brewing in the Czech republic utilising pressurized bright tanks.

http://www.czechminibreweries.com/p...nents/cold-block/beer-maturation-lager-tanks/

I'll leave you to it. The linked information just scratches the surface.

As a side note. Just to put it in perspective if gasses behaved the way you are sure of, humans would all suffer the ill efects of nitrogen narcosis in colder weather and die from the bends during a warm snap. Not compatible with life.

 

[Tofek]

Man, calm down Sorry for the polemic !

Have a look at this table and imagine that molecules of CO2 can link to proteins present in beer to stabilize and stay in the beer. Gets you to CO2 levels present in english ales, and without pressuring (hard to believe but true )...and without dying of nitrogen narcosis in cold weather too !
That's where my question arises : did anyone achieve such carbonation by lagering beer without pressurizing ?

http://braukaiser.com/documents/CO2_content_metric.pdf

Just to say that some brewers brew like they always did, without knowing about Boyle's law, and without knowledge in physics such as the ones you have (thanks for the useful links! ). Don't get me wrong.
But thank you anyways for teaching me how beer is made in my country by showing a microbrewery products website, very respectful of you. Just imagine some things could work a little different than you always thought/read on the internet. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

Hope that everyone is satisfied with their beers since that's what matters ! Cheers !

 

[ThomasPaine]

Buy a bottle of lager and chill it to 1c, open it and see if it is flat the next day.

 

[passedpawn]

Assume I ferment at 38F (I know I know, just assume though)...

If my fermentor is 28' tall, what's the pressure in PSI at the bottom of the fermentor? How does that compare to kegging pressure? If its 56' tall, and when it's finished fermenting I cap it and stir the contents, what would the resulting "volumes of CO2" be?

 

[Gavin C]

Assume I ferment at 38F (I know I know, just assume though)...

If my fermentor is 28' tall, what's the pressure in PSI at the bottom of the fermentor? How does that compare to kegging pressure? If its 56' tall, and when it's finished fermenting I cap it and stir the contents, what would the resulting "volumes of CO2" be?

33' of sea water is ~1 atm or 14.7psi. The pressure would be 56/33 x14.7

But the value does not matter. The partial pressure of any dissolved gasses in the liquid is governed by the head space, in this case 0 net pressure over atmospheric. Henry's Law

As an example if this were not the case, dissolved O2 in the sea would rise as we go deeper. This is not the case.

It would also create a concentration gradient from deep to shallow that would break the 2nd law of thermodynamics.

 

[passedpawn]

33' of sea water is ~1 atm or 14.7psi. The pressure would be 56/33 x14.7

But the value does not matter. The partial pressure of any dissolved gasses in the liquid is governed by the head space, in this case 0 net pressure over atmospheric. Henry's Law

As an example if this were not the case, dissolved O2 in the sea would rise as we go deeper. This is not the case.

It would also create a concentration gradient from deep to shallow that would break the 2nd law of thermodynamics.

How does the CO2 at the bottom of the fermentor, at 12psi, know about the headspace?

 

[Gavin C]

How does the CO2 at the bottom of the fermentor, at 12psi, know about the headspace?

It never reaches that as no concentration gradient can ever result in the liquid. It will always be tending to equilibrium.

It's not a case of the liquid at the bottom become more saturated with a gas and then realizing it's breaking a fundamental physical law and correcting. The partial pressure of the gas is not governed by the hydrostatic pressure at the base of the vessel but by the partial pressure of the gas in the closed system. This is the head space pressure. In the theorized non-pressurized bright-tanks it is 1 atm.

The equilibrium point will be governed solely by the temperature of the liquid not the size or shape of the vessel.

 

[slym2none]

It would also create a concentration gradient from deep to shallow that would break the 2nd law of thermodynamics.

Is that the one that can be interpreted to mean that the entropy of a closed system tends toward a maximum & that its available energy tends toward a minimum?

 

[Gavin C]

Is that the one that can be interpreted to mean that the entropy of a closed system tends toward a maximum & that its available energy tends toward a minimum?

Yes.

 

[Tofek]

It never reaches that as no concentration gradient can ever result in the liquid. It will always be tending to equilibrium.

It's not a case of the liquid at the bottom become more saturated with a gas and then realizing it's breaking a fundamental physical law and correcting. The partial pressure of the gas is not governed by the hydrostatic pressure at the base of the vessel but by the partial pressure of the gas in the closed system. This is the head space pressure. In the theorized non-pressurized bright-tanks it is 1 atm.

The equilibrium point will be governed solely by the temperature of the liquid not the size or shape of the vessel.

You think a 3300hl CCV is perfectly homogenous?

This is fermentation of beer, not a physical model. There is biochemistry involved. That means an equilibrum can take quite a time to be reached. Think of is as a living organism where an equilibrum is hardly ever reached, till it dies. That is actually breaking 2nd law of thermodynamics. One of the characteristics of life.
So there are gradients in the beer : be it temperature, yeast, CO2. Concentration of sugar varies too if yeast is flocculant.