Achieving a silky/pillowy/creamy mouthfeel (a la Hill Farmstead)?

[leesmith]

Does it taste like (I know this sounds odd) your sucking on a penny. Like a metallic bite sort of like tin foil taste...but really like a penny right in the middle of your tongue?

 

[StopTakingMyUsername]

Does it taste like (I know this sounds odd) your sucking on a penny. Like a metallic bite sort of like tin foil taste...but really like a penny right in the middle of your tongue?

sorta, yeah.

I'd describe as those throat sprays you get when you have strep throat or a cold.
That very medicinal, artificial, metallic taste.

I mean, it wasn't overbearing or anything, it was just a little bite of it in the after taste.

 

[Braufessor]

I just did an Azacca beer..... It is similar to what you describe. Really don't like it at all. Super disappointed. Those hops taste NOTHING like the description - Thin, Sharp..... just not good. I don't see them finding their way back into a beer of mine.

Wellllll....... I am not sure how, or why, but my azacca beer has actually come around and is pretty good. Still not my favorite all time hop or anything - but this is now a quite good pale ale. It is not as good as hops like citra, mosaic, galaxy..... and I think the description of it is misleading.

I have never had a beer change as much as this one has. It was truly "a dumper" when I tasted it around dry hopping/kegging time. It was "bad" shortly after putting on tap. It has gotten a little better since and is now pretty darn good.

It is lighter in flavor than some of the bigger hops.... but, nice and citrusy. I forgive you azacca - I might have to even use the rest of the bag

 

[brettwasbtd]

Wellllll....... I am not sure how, or why, but my azacca beer has actually come around and is pretty good. Still not my favorite all time hop or anything - but this is now a quite good pale ale. It is not as good as hops like citra, mosaic, galaxy..... and I think the description of it is misleading.

I have never had a beer change as much as this one has. It was truly "a dumper" when I tasted it around dry hopping/kegging time. It was "bad" shortly after putting on tap. It has gotten a little better since and is now pretty darn good.

It is lighter in flavor than some of the bigger hops.... but, nice and citrusy. I forgive you azacca - I might have to even use the rest of the bag

Glad it is making a turn for the better! I had been seeing all these negative reviews and getting worried - I purchased a pound and used some in my hoppy pale ale this past Saturday. Flameout whirlpool of .5 oz zythos, and .75oz each of citra and azacca (2.5 gal batch). I shook those three hops up with my hand covering the cup and then smelled...it was amazing. Like an artificial tropical fruit rollup explosion up front with low pine and low dank notes in the tail. Plan to dry hop with citra and azacca

 

[gometz]

I just did an Azacca beer..... It is similar to what you describe. Really don't like it at all. Super disappointed. Those hops taste NOTHING like the description - Thin, Sharp..... just not good. I don't see them finding their way back into a beer of mine.

In regard to yeast.... I am a conan/vermont IPA fan.

My Azacca IPA also seems much more muted than expected. I couldn't figure out why since I didn't do anything differently. For half a pound in a 5 gallon batch there's very little bitterness and aroma. Strangely the aroma seems to be improving after week 3 in the bottle.

 

[TheHairyHop]

Wellllll....... I am not sure how, or why, but my azacca beer has actually come around and is pretty good. Still not my favorite all time hop or anything - but this is now a quite good pale ale. It is not as good as hops like citra, mosaic, galaxy..... and I think the description of it is misleading.

I have never had a beer change as much as this one has. It was truly "a dumper" when I tasted it around dry hopping/kegging time. It was "bad" shortly after putting on tap. It has gotten a little better since and is now pretty darn good.

It is lighter in flavor than some of the bigger hops.... but, nice and citrusy. I forgive you azacca - I might have to even use the rest of the bag

not that I've used Azacca, but Founder's single hop Azacca IPA is great. there must be a specific way of treating it

 

[brewski09]

not that I've used Azacca, but Founder's single hop Azacca IPA is great. there must be a specific way of treating it

It could also be poor quality hops making it to homebrewers. I had that with a "new" hop variety previously that was fine a couple years later when I bought more (maybe a poor supplier the first time too)

 

[FruityHops]

I searched this thread and it doesn't seem like anyone has linked to this article from Shaun Hill

http://scottjanish.com/chasing-mouthfeel-softness/

 

[orangehero]

That's a blog post from some guy named Scott. And the most recent time it was posted was 15 posts ago.

 

[Barley_Bob]

Your mom is some guy named Scott.

 

[JJ900]

Another good option to use up Azacca hops is to make a Victory Hop Ranch clone, 9%ABV. There is an HBT thread for it. I make a lighter 7% version with equal parts Mosaic and Azacca in a 60/15/5/flameout/dryhop schedule and I think its a better beer at this ABV.

 

[kchomebrew]

I've done many NE style IPA/Pale ales and have used everything from US04, WY 1098, WLP007, WY1318, Gigayeast Conan, Omega Conan, and Imperial Organic Conan and it seems like to me that there is only marginal difference on all these yeasts with the right grain bill (plenty of oats and wheat), proper Ca:Cl:So4 ratio, and proper dry hopping techniques (rouse the dry hop additions). My preference is 1098 or 1318 or, sometimes a blend of the two and I think both work nicely but each works better with different hop profiles.

So my thought I had this AM was trying the above technique with a chico strain. Has anyone done this ? And I mean with like 20%+ of grain bill being flaked oats/wheat and with above described water profile and dry hop techniques ? I know the consensus is that the english strains provide fruity esters that work with the dry hops, but would be interesting to see if the finished product is still hazy and displays a nice hop profile. I'd imagine you'd get a more restrained yeast profile, which could be interesting in a NE style to see how that presents itself. Not that the yeast profile in a finished NE style is undesirable. Just curious what it would be like. I'm wondering if this is what Lawson's is doing since they've been on record noting use of Chico and it's clearly a different type of haze/hop profile than the other NE breweries.....almost looks like some of the heavier hopped Toppling Goliath beers, but I'm fairly certain they are using an english strain (WLP 002 ?). I've never seen any posts about using US05 with NE style Ca:Cl:So4 ratios and heavy oat/wheat based grain bills.

 

[Braufessor]

I've done many NE style IPA/Pale ales and have used everything from US04, WY 1098, WLP007, WY1318, Gigayeast Conan, Omega Conan, and Imperial Organic Conan and it seems like to me that there is only marginal difference on all these yeasts with the right grain bill (plenty of oats and wheat), proper Ca:Cl:So4 ratio, and proper dry hopping techniques (rouse the dry hop additions). My preference is 1098 or 1318 or, sometimes a blend of the two and I think both work nicely but each works better with different hop profiles.

So my thought I had this AM was trying the above technique with a chico strain. Has anyone done this ? And I mean with like 20%+ of grain bill being flaked oats/wheat and with above described water profile and dry hop techniques ? I know the consensus is that the english strains provide fruity esters that work with the dry hops, but would be interesting to see if the finished product is still hazy and displays a nice hop profile. I'd imagine you'd get a more restrained yeast profile, which could be interesting in a NE style to see how that presents itself. Not that the yeast profile in a finished NE style is undesirable. Just curious what it would be like. I'm wondering if this is what Lawson's is doing since they've been on record noting use of Chico and it's clearly a different type of haze/hop profile than the other NE breweries.....almost looks like some of the heavier hopped Toppling Goliath beers, but I'm fairly certain they are using an english strain (WLP 002 ?). I've never seen any posts about using US05 with NE style Ca:Cl:So4 ratios and heavy oat/wheat based grain bills.

I just used 1272 for a series of beers - it was fantastic. I liked it as much.... maybe even more???? than Conan which has been my standby for the last couple years.
I have been using a slightly "bigger" version of this recipe;
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=568046

OG in the 1.055-1.060 range
40% each of Golden Promise and 2 Row.
7.5% Flaked Oats
5% Flaked Barley
2.5% each of Flaked wheat, wheat and honey malt

140:70 Sulfate: Chloride (or maybe 1:1 ratio in the 100-140 range). pH around 5.4 for mash and kettle.

Hopping schedule as outlined in OP.

But, yeah - the 1272 was really great.

 

[BreezyBrew]

I just used 1272 for a series of beers - it was fantastic. I liked it as much.... maybe even more???? than Conan which has been my standby for the last couple years.
I have been using a slightly "bigger" version of this recipe;
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=568046

OG in the 1.055-1.060 range
40% each of Golden Promise and 2 Row.
7.5% Flaked Oats
5% Flaked Barley
2.5% each of Flaked wheat, wheat and honey malt

140:70 Sulfate: Chloride (or maybe 1:1 ratio in the 100-140 range). pH around 5.4 for mash and kettle.

Hopping schedule as outlined in OP.

But, yeah - the 1272 was really great.

What temp did you end up fermenting at?

 

[Braufessor]

What temp did you end up fermenting at?

Probably started at 64 or so and allowed it to free rise to 70 or so, then held it around 70 for remainder of fermentation.

 

[TheHairyHop]

I've used wlp644 and it's good. I'm looking for more of that peach flavor that Conan puts out, however. I've got some hybrids from suregork that I'm trying to ramp up atm

 

[kchomebrew]

I just used 1272 for a series of beers - it was fantastic. I liked it as much.... maybe even more???? than Conan which has been my standby for the last couple years.
I have been using a slightly "bigger" version of this recipe;
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=568046

OG in the 1.055-1.060 range
40% each of Golden Promise and 2 Row.
7.5% Flaked Oats
5% Flaked Barley
2.5% each of Flaked wheat, wheat and honey malt

140:70 Sulfate: Chloride (or maybe 1:1 ratio in the 100-140 range). pH around 5.4 for mash and kettle.

Hopping schedule as outlined in OP.

But, yeah - the 1272 was really great.

Anchor Liberty strain. Interesting. I believe I read about that. Do you know where 1272 stems from ? I'd assume Conan was derived from Boddingtons and some sort of drift over time created Conan. Seem to recall reading Greg Noonan sourcing from some English strain and producing Conan. But interested to know if 1272 maybe branched from Boddingtons or something similar

 

[BlueEyesBrewing]

Has anyone tried this approach (i.e. water profile, large percentage of oats/wheat, etc.) for different styles of beer besides IPA's to get that soft, pillowy mouthfeel? I've been thinking of trying it with either a stout or Irish red recipe and just wondering if someone else has had any luck in doing so.

 

[lilbova3]

Has anyone tried this approach (i.e. water profile, large percentage of oats/wheat, etc.) for different styles of beer besides IPA's to get that soft, pillowy mouthfeel? I've been thinking of trying it with either a stout or Irish red recipe and just wondering if someone else has had any luck in doing so.

I've done it with a stout and shared with a really really great fellow homebrewer and the first thing he commented on was the soft mouthfeel.

Basically comes down to what you want the finished product to be like.

 

[BlueEyesBrewing]

I've done it with a stout and shared with a really really great fellow homebrewer and the first thing he commented on was the soft mouthfeel.

Basically comes down to what you want the finished product to be like.

So did you just do a 1:2 Sulfate:Chloride with a mash pH of 5.4 and use about 10-20% of oats/wheat?

 

[bierhaus15]

Anchor Liberty strain. Interesting. I believe I read about that. Do you know where 1272 stems from ? I'd assume Conan was derived from Boddingtons and some sort of drift over time created Conan. Seem to recall reading Greg Noonan sourcing from some English strain and producing Conan. But interested to know if 1272 maybe branched from Boddingtons or something similar

The Anchor yeast (BRY97) is believed to be one of the Ballantine strains (their top-cropping 'ale' strain). Interestingly, Chico/BRY96 is also Ballantine and there is some evidence it was their bottom cropping "beer" strain. Anchor got their yeast from Siebel.

Regardless, Conan is not a 1318 or 1272 derivative. Conan (1188) is closest to NCYC1187, or Ringwood. I have not seen genetic testing, but in lab trials they both behave almost exactly for acid production, flocculation, diacetyl, ect. It would make sense Conan is Ringwood related as well, since that was a widely used yeast in Vermont when the VPB was getting started.

 

[motosapiens]

So did you just do a 1:2 Sulfate:Chloride with a mash pH of 5.4 and use about 10-20% of oats/wheat?

i would think you'd want more like 70:140 sulfate to chloride. 1:2 isn't a detectable amount of either ion.

 

[ultravista]

Let's keep this thread going.

 

[FruityHops]

Anyone else think hop oils in suspension have something to do with it? I split my last batch in half, so the first half only received one round of dry hops, and the second half got an additional 1 oz per gal keg hopped. I noticed the half with the additional keg hops had a thicker, richer mouth feel than the half without it. My wife also commented on the same thing without me asking her anything about it.

Edit : To be clear, the whole batch got dry hopped in primary, during active fermentation. Then half was left alone and half was dry hopped a second time in the serving keg. More hops is more better.

 

[TheHairyHop]

Anyone else think hop oils in suspension have something to do with it? I split my last batch in half, so the first half only received one round of dry hops, and the second half got an additional 1 oz per gal keg hopped. I noticed the half with the additional keg hops had a thicker, richer mouth feel than the half without it. My wife also commented on the same thing without me asking her anything about it.

Edit : To be clear, the whole batch got dry hopped in primary, during active fermentation. Then half was left alone and half was dry hopped a second time in the serving keg. More hops is more better.

yes. there are hypotheses thinking that it also helps to dry hop while yeast are still in suspension as well. It would be interesting to do a three way split batch in that vein.

 

[princenuce]

Good stuff.
Subbed

 

[couchsending]

Ha anyone else here built of starters from dregs of their hoppy beers on tap? Growlers from the brewery? I'm fermenting a beer now with yeast I harvested from a 750 of S&S9. It definitely doesn't seem to perform anything like 1318 which I know a lot of people think is their yeast...

I also built up dregs from one of the farmhouse ale bottles I got (can't remember which) and I definitely got a lot of wine yeast. It has that trademark cherry smell that comes from BM-45 I believe.. there is definitely Brett in there too but clearly no brewing yeast as the wine yeast kills all of it.

 

[Braufessor]

Ha anyone else here built of starters from dregs of their hoppy beers on tap? Growlers from the brewery? I'm fermenting a beer now with yeast I harvested from a 750 of S&S9. It definitely doesn't seem to perform anything like 1318 which I know a lot of people think is their yeast...

I also built up dregs from one of the farmhouse ale bottles I got (can't remember which) and I definitely got a lot of wine yeast. It has that trademark cherry smell that comes from BM-45 I believe.. there is definitely Brett in there too but clearly no brewing yeast as the wine yeast kills all of it.

I built up dregs from a bottle of Arthur and a bottle of Dorothy. I blended the two yeasts into one starter. I had a saison I fermented with Yeast Bay Saison Blend..... regular "Saison Flavor." However, I then bottled it in 750ml bottles and added some of the Hill Farmstead yeast to each bottle. The beer really transformed in the bottle..... citrus, tart, lemony..... reminded me a lot of Arthur. I am still waiting on it to carb up better at this point.

I since have used that yeast in another Saison as a primary fermentation strain. I just moved it from fermenter to conditioning/secondary keg after 18 days in primary (gravity 1.010). I have to say, I was not super impressed with it out of primary. It was ok. However, it certainly did not taste like the saison where I used it for bottling. Have to see where it goes from here. May end up adding Brett C. to it or something in a couple weeks if it does not seem like flavor is coming around a little better.
I will definitely add it at bottling again though to see if I can replicate the first results in regard to flavor

 

[couchsending]

I built up dregs from a bottle of Arthur and a bottle of Dorothy. I blended the two yeasts into one starter. I had a saison I fermented with Yeast Bay Saison Blend..... regular "Saison Flavor." However, I then bottled it in 750ml bottles and added some of the Hill Farmstead yeast to each bottle. The beer really transformed in the bottle..... citrus, tart, lemony..... reminded me a lot of Arthur. I am still waiting on it to carb up better at this point.

I since have used that yeast in another Saison as a primary fermentation strain. I just moved it from fermenter to conditioning/secondary keg after 18 days in primary (gravity 1.010). I have to say, I was not super impressed with it out of primary. It was ok. However, it certainly did not taste like the saison where I used it for bottling. Have to see where it goes from here. May end up adding Brett C. to it or something in a couple weeks if it does not seem like flavor is coming around a little better.
I will definitely add it at bottling again though to see if I can replicate the first results in regard to flavor

What did you mash at? Did you think it would go much further? You can ferment beer with BM-45 but it won't go that low cause it can't eat the maltitriose. Maybe the Brett could have eaten a bunch more of the residual sugar to get it that low. I haven't fermented a beer with Wine yeast yet but have been doing a lot of research over the last month on wine yeast so I'm not sure what attenuation you could get with it but I would think if you mashed low, and added some sugar you could get to 1.010 with wine yeast and Brett.

If people haven't listened to the Brewing Network podcast from 2008 with Shea Comfort (aka The Yeast Whisperer) I would highly highly suggest it. Hands down the most interesting podcast I've ever listened to on brewing! Learned a lot about wine yeast, blending, and especially oak.

 

[TheHairyHop]

I recently did an IPA with heavy hopping, oats and 1318, and the mouthfeel is almost too thick. I also did a 2:1 chloride to sulfate ratio.