Achieving a silky/pillowy/creamy mouthfeel (a la Hill Farmstead)?

[Colbizle]

both in a way, so as he hinted long ago using some calcium chloride and some gypsum will work. Both are part calcium and I really thing the overall level of calcium and minerals is part of the total mouthfeel equation. If you go too far with the chloride, it gets salty IMO

This makes sense. Solid work!

 

[Callacave]

Great info mosaic!! Thank you!! Would love to see that recipe sometime!

 

[The_Glue]

Also, sodium ion water softeners are very common in the brewing industry, especially since RO systems are expensive and can be limiting. Some breweries use ion exchange softeners and RO systems, but most just use the standard sodium ion ones. I've been to a few VT breweries that use these, including one of the largest in the state.

Just noticed this, are some of these guys using ion-exchanged water for brewing commercial beers?
I have one in the house but if I remember well it is might not even recommended to drink from it. It definitely tastes weird on its own. It is just connected to the washing machine and stuff but for example in the kitchen we use the unfiltered tap water. I've been advised a few times on this forum that I shouldn't try it. Maybe I should try brewing a batch with it? Can it remove HCO3/CaCO3 or just Ca and Mg?

 

[g-star]

Just noticed this, are some of these guys using ion-exchanged water for brewing commercial beers?
I have one in the house but if I remember well it is might not even recommended to drink from it. It definitely tastes weird on its own. It is just connected to the washing machine and stuff but for example in the kitchen we use the unfiltered tap water. I've been advised a few times on this forum that I shouldn't try it. Maybe I should try brewing a batch with it? Can it remove HCO3/CaCO3 or just Ca and Mg?

Softend water is terrible for brewing, don't use it. The process removes all Ca/Mg, which are beneficial to yeast health and towards lowering residual alkalinity. They do nothing to change the HCO3-/CO3-- content of the water.

So with untreated soft water you end up with highly alkalinity that is also high in sodium and deficient in the elements needed to lower the alkalinity up reaction with malt phosphates.

 

[The_Glue]

Softend water is terrible for brewing, don't use it. The process removes all Ca/Mg, which are beneficial to yeast health and towards lowering residual alkalinity. They do nothing to change the HCO3-/CO3-- content of the water.

So with untreated soft water you end up with highly alkalinity that is also high in sodium and deficient in the elements needed to lower the alkalinity up reaction with malt phosphates.

That sounds bad, i wont try it then.

I think for my next brew i will try a softish bottled water (they dont seem to sell RO water here)

Here are the stats: (in ppm or mg/l)

ca 60
mg 23
na 13.8
k 1.3

hco3 323
cl 4
so4 5

ph: 7,6

I plan to add some CaCl2 and bring the ph to 5.4 with phosporic acid, i treat the full water volume so the same treated water will be used for the mash and sparge. (i dont even sparge btw so it will be just added to the kettle)

 

[Braufessor]

So, time for an update on my recent brews. Brewed 6 or so APA/IPA's. For the most part all of them were pretty similar in the basics (different Hops):

Grain:
90-92% Base Malt (50/50 split of Rahr 2 Row and Maris Otter)
2-2.5% each of Flaked oats, wheat, honey malt and cara 20
1.055-1.060 OG, 1.012-1.014 FG

Yeast:
Conan for all

Hops:
1oz. Warrior to bitter at 60
Nothing else in the boil
3 oz. at flameout
3 more ounces when wort is chilled a bit to sub 180 - long hop stand
2-3 ounces dry hop at day 5-7 or so in primary for 3-5 days

Keg around day 10-12, carbonate on the low-moderate end.

Water - The main things I did that were different -
*Quit using 100% RO - 50%(ish) high bicarbonate tap water (lactic acid to deal with pH)
*Lower sulfate (60-100)
*Higher CaCl (70-150)
*Mash pH 5.35-5.5

Bottom line - IMO - the best batch (at least compared to what we are shooting for in this thread was a Citra/Mosaic I brewed.

*Grain bill as above
*Hop bill as above ( Warrior bitter, 2 ounces of Mosaic to 1 ounce of Citra in all 3 additions)
Water = 60% RO
Ca = 96
Mg = 12
Na = 28
Sulfate = 67
Chloride = 137
Bicarbonate = 128

Gypsum = .2grams/gallon
CaCl = .6 grams/gallon
Epsom = .1 gram/gallon
Canning salt = .2 grams/gallon
*Same additions and RO ratio in mash and sparge

This beer had the highest pH's of any of the beers I brewed.
Mash pH = 5.47
Sparge water = 5.95
Final runnings = 5.65
Boil kettle was 5.53 ..... but I added 1ml lactic acid and brought it down a touch to 5.45 or so.
Post Boil = 5.30

My second favorite was probably a citra/galaxy where the chloride was 153. This beer had the second highest pH's across the board. This beer was a "bit" sharper and drier..... was it the Galaxy hops or the higher chloride??

My current takeaways and what I am thinking of trying in next batch(es).
*Chloride in the 135 range seemed better than 100 or 150. 125 chloride to 60 sulfate in next batch I think.
*60% RO water was better than 40-50 and also better than 90-100. Bicarbonate in the 125 range. using .5-.6ml/gallon lactic acid to counter.
*Higher pH seemed to produce a smoother beer..... odd. 5.45-5.5 range. The lower pH (5.3-35) beers seemed "sharper."

Going to do a couple batches of citra/mosaic. One similar to the batch I already did - just minor tweaks. The other based on the tired hands reference earlier in the thread - with 15% (ish) flaked grains. Probably still use the conan yeast..... just because I have about 10 jars of it in my fridge.

I would say these last few IPA's were all really good - at least to my tastes and preferences. Hoping to take it a bit further. Thanks for all the input and trial and error everyone is doing.

 

[g-star]

My current takeaways and what I am thinking of trying in next batch(es).
*Chloride in the 135 range seemed better than 100 or 150. 125 chloride to 60 sulfate in next batch I think.

Great job with the detailed notes and for sharing them, but I think you're misguided if you think that a swing of 15 - 35ppm in the starting chloride content of you brewing water is influencing the final beer.

Malt can add anywhere from 100 - 1000ppm chloride to the beer on its own, and this will vary among recipes, crops, lot numbers, mash technique, etc.

Focusing efforts on examining pre/post-fermentation pH would seem like a more fruitful endeavor.

 

[Braufessor]

Great job with the detailed notes and for sharing them, but I think you're misguided if you think that a swing of 15 - 35ppm in the starting chloride content of you brewing water is influencing the final beer.

Malt can add anywhere from 100 - 1000ppm chloride to the beer on its own, and this will vary among recipes, crops, lot numbers, mash technique, etc.

Focusing efforts on examining pre/post-fermentation pH would seem like a more fruitful endeavor.

Yeah - I agree about the few ppm of chloride (or other ions). There was a difference in the perception of the beers - but I think I attribute that more to the Galaxy hops perhaps (which are more assertive than Mosaic) and also, perhaps the slightly higher ph's in the mosaic beer as well.

What types of pH (pre and post fermentation) do you target?

 

[lowtones84]

He goes over some stuff we've talked about, but Michael Tonsmire of the Mad Fermentationist blog brewed and had a blog post about getting a Northeast IPA the way he wanted it. He also mentions some things that I don't think we've quite touched yet:

http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2015/06/hop-juice-north-east-ipa-recipe.html

 

[KindofBlues71]

Edward,13.5ºP, 85 ibus, 5.2% abv. Pale and Caramel malt; Centennial, Chinook, Columbus, Simcoe, and Warrior hops; House Ale Yeast, and our Well Water.

Abner, 8%, 18.5º P, 170 Theoretical ibus. Ingredients: Pale and Caramel Malt; Dextrose; Centennial, Chinook, Columbus, Simcoe, and Warrior hops; Ale Yeast, and our Well Water.

Ephraim, 9.6%. Ingredients: Pale Malt; Dextrose; Centennial, Chinook, Columbus, Simcoe, and Warrior hops, Ale Yeast, and Water.

How different do these three beers taste? I've not been lucky enough to try any HF beers (or Tree House for that matter) but it blows my mind that the three beers above have the same hops and same base grain yet can have such different flavors. Damn I love this hobby!

 

[irishrover32]

He goes over some stuff we've talked about, but Michael Tonsmire of the Mad Fermentationist blog brewed and had a blog post about getting a Northeast IPA the way he wanted it. He also mentions some things that I don't think we've quite touched yet:

http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2015/06/hop-juice-north-east-ipa-recipe.html

Great article I love how he talks about the juicy flavours I much prefere these over the grassy earthy aromas and flavours, he's speaking my language

 

[The_Glue]

He goes over some stuff we've talked about, but Michael Tonsmire of the Mad Fermentationist blog brewed and had a blog post about getting a Northeast IPA the way he wanted it. He also mentions some things that I don't think we've quite touched yet:

http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2015/06/hop-juice-north-east-ipa-recipe.html

He dryhopped 3 days into the fermentation? Did he removed them before kegging?

 

[g-star]

Yeah - I agree about the few ppm of chloride (or other ions). There was a difference in the perception of the beers - but I think I attribute that more to the Galaxy hops perhaps (which are more assertive than Mosaic) and also, perhaps the slightly higher ph's in the mosaic beer as well.

What types of pH (pre and post fermentation) do you target?

I target a kettle pH of 5.2 - 5.3, and a final beer pH of about 4.4. That seems to brighten up the hop flavors.

As a side note, just reading the description of WY1318 sure makes it seem like yeast strain plays a big role:

Originating from a traditional London brewery, this yeast has a wonderful malt and hop profile. It is a true top cropping strain with a fruity, very light and softly balanced palate. This strain will finish slightly sweet.

To my mind, the factors to focus on in order of importance would be:

1. Yeast strain
2. Late/whirlpool hopping - glycoside effect
3. pH
4. Water profile

 

[The_Glue]

Great article I love how he talks about the juicy flavours I much prefere these over the grassy earthy aromas and flavours, he's speaking my language

Someone mentioned somewhere that he achieved maximum juice by doing a hopstand below 170F instead of flame-out.

 

[kaz4121]

How different do these three beers taste? I've not been lucky enough to try any HF beers (or Tree House for that matter) but it blows my mind that the three beers above have the same hops and same base grain yet can have such different flavors. Damn I love this hobby!

Personally, they are very similar. I actually had a friend try two of the three back to back and the third a week later and he said he wouldn't have a clue which is which because they look and taste so similar. YMMV

 

[Oldsock]

He dryhopped 3 days into the fermentation? Did he removed them before kegging?

I left the first dose of dry hops behind when I racked into the keg (where the second dose awaited, which will be in contact until the keg kicks).

 

[Oldsock]

Someone mentioned somewhere that he achieved maximum juice by doing a hopstand below 170F instead of flame-out.

I tried a lower temp hop stand on a wit I posted about last week. Didn't feel like it gave me as much saturated hop flavor as the hotter steep. I don't do mid/late boil hops, so that's really what I'm looking for from the hop stand. I rely on the dry hopping for the nose you can smell from a few feet away!

 

[The_Glue]

I left the first dose of dry hops behind when I racked into the keg (where the second dose awaited, which will be in contact until the keg kicks).

If i am not mistaken your Galaxy dryhop spent about 9 days in the fermenter. How come the beer didn't got grassy?

Also here is a "secret" in exchange, it's about hop glycosides and stuff:

I tried Lallzyme Beta in beer, (it was a dry hopped beer with a big whirlpool addition) as far as i know they mainly sell it to wine makers to boost aromatic white wines with it. (added during bottling, around 1.5grams per 5gal, i added it while i mixed in the priming sugar)
I bottled half the batch with Beta and half the batch without it.
That enzyme frees up bound glucosidases or something like that.
Long story short, it worked, the batch with the Beta smelled as if i used more dryhops in it than in the untreated batch. This is of course not really professional but i need to use it more to get a more educated opinion on the enzyme.

edit: some proper info about that enzyme:
http://www.scottlab.com/uploads/documents/downloads/242/Lallzyme Beta 6-22-10.pdf

 

[Oldsock]

If i am not mistaken your Galaxy dryhop spent about 9 days in the fermenter. How come the beer didn't got grassy?

Also here is a "secret" in exchange, it's about hop glycosides and stuff:

I tried Lallzyme Beta in beer, (it was a dry hopped beer with a big whirlpool addition) as far as i know they mainly sell it to wine makers to boost aromatic white wines with it. (added during bottling, around 1.5grams per 5gal, i added it while i mixed in the priming sugar)
I bottled half the batch with Beta and half the batch without it.
That enzyme frees up bound glucosidases or something like that.
Long story short, it worked, the batch with the Beta smelled as if i used more dryhops in it than in the untreated batch. This is of course not really professional but i need to use it more to get a more educated opinion on the enzyme.

edit: some proper info about that enzyme:
http://www.scottlab.com/uploads/documents/downloads/242/Lallzyme Beta 6-22-10.pdf

Interesting stuff on the enzyme!

I don't think 9 days is enough to extract too much grassy character from the hops without agitation. Most commercial breweries recirculate the wort to increase extraction rate. Heck I've had keg hops sit in beers for a couple months without issue (granted the cold and whole hops help to prevent this anyway).

 

[Kiichi]

So a hopstand is positive for mouthfeel not only because of general oil saturation but also due to a reaction with the yeast. Well, that I like to hear since I am a big proponent of hopstands.

Going to bottle my latest experiment in this area tomorrow and will of course let you know how it goes. It´s kind of a big Pale Ale, single hop Hallertau Blanc. Pilsner malt, with a bit of wheat, a touch of Carapils, and a hint of Carawheat. The water chemistry stuff discussed here was applied and a really big hopstand used. Notty as yeast. Smells promising so far and I have hopes for a great mouthfeel too.

 

[Oldsock]

So a hopstand is positive for mouthfeel not only because of general oil saturation but also due to a reaction with the yeast. Well, that I like to hear since I am a big proponent of hopstands.

More about flavor in the mouth, rather than mouthfeel. Yeast action is one of the reasons kettle hops have such a different character than dry hops. Same for spices, if I want subtle and integrated I add late-boil, if I want to really taste the spices to do a tea to add at bottling.

 

[irishrover32]

so iv got two brews with similiar water profiles and equal ratios of cloride to sulfate (51/57) but i just cant get over how smooth one of them is, its a deschutes fresh squeezed clone and i kid you not its like a nitro beer, the bubbles are tiny and theres no carbonation bite in it at all, wat i do notice is the hop saturation, i dry hoped this in the keg with around 5OZ of hops, after removing them i found the beer was extremely murky and almost soupy, this beer used wlp007 and was very clear going into keg before dry hoping

the other beer had the same chloride/sulfate ratio but it was hopped in the carboy and siphoned to keg with a nylon bag over syphon, this beer used wyeast 1318, the beer was not murky but had a lot of yeast in suspension its been in keg just over a week and is starting to clear but iv noticed its nicely carbonated with bigish bubbles,

the other beer has been in keg about 3-4 weeks now and shows no signs of clearing, im beging to think that the massive dry hopping causing the murky soupy-ness is the reason for the nitro-esque mouthfeel and body, not sure how this fits in with this topic but its interesting to see how the hopping and water can effect carbonation bubbles

pictures of both beers to follow

 

[Braufessor]

so iv got two brews with similiar water profiles and equal ratios of cloride to sulfate (51/57) but i just cant get over how smooth one of them is, its a deschutes fresh squeezed clone and i kid you not its like a nitro beer, the bubbles are tiny and theres no carbonation bite in it at all, wat i do notice is the hop saturation, i dry hoped this in the keg with around 5OZ of hops, after removing them i found the beer was extremely murky and almost soupy, this beer used wlp007 and was very clear going into keg before dry hoping



the other beer has been in keg about 3-4 weeks now and shows no signs of clearing, im beging to think that the massive dry hopping causing the murky soupy-ness is the reason for the nitro-esque mouthfeel and body, not sure how this fits in with this topic but its interesting to see how the hopping and water can effect carbonation bubbles

pictures of both beers to follow

I can see this. I have a beer on tap right now - HBT Heady topper clone - and I did a double dry hop. 1st half of the dry hops toward end of primary. Second half added according to this process - in a keg: http://www.bear-flavored.com/2014/09/how-i-dry-hop-my-ipas-with-no-oxygen.html

Jumped it to a serving keg 3-4 days later. Definitely a hazy, fuller mouthfeel than other similar beers brewed at the same time, but only dry hopped in primary. Brewed with Conan yeast. Most of my conan beers end up crisper, and drop clear after a week or 10 days..... not this one. Rich, full, hazy.

 

[The_Glue]

So i am thinking about brewing a Tired Hands HopHands clone using some of the water knowledge and stuff estabilished in this thread.
I am thinking about brewing a 12l batch (~3gal) and split it into 4 small fermenters using 4 different yeasts. US05, S04 (the Hop Hands clone yeast), Lallemand Windsor and Mangrove Jacks's Burton ale (the description sounds a bit similar to Conan/London Ale III)
I'd put about 0,8 gal into each fermenter. Do you guys think I should divide the dry yeast weight by around 5?
I like to overpitch US05 to get a clean fermentation but in this case I am probably looking for some esters.

 

[mosaicbrewer]

So i am thinking about brewing a Tired Hands HopHands clone using some of the water knowledge and stuff estabilished in this thread.
I am thinking about brewing a 12l batch (~3gal) and split it into 4 small fermenters using 4 different yeasts. US05, S04 (the Hop Hands clone yeast), Lallemand Windsor and Mangrove Jacks's Burton ale (the description sounds a bit similar to Conan/London Ale III)
I'd put about 0,8 gal into each fermenter. Do you guys think I should divide the dry yeast weight by around 5?
I like to overpitch US05 to get a clean fermentation but in this case I am probably looking for some esters.

I have been trying all those yeasts for this mouthfeel goal, and they all floc like mad. Really did not think the burton would but it is the clearest beer I have made recently. Flavor was ok on it

 

[Colbizle]

I have been trying all those yeasts for this mouthfeel goal, and they all floc like mad. Really did not think the burton would but it is the clearest beer I have made recently. Flavor was ok on it

Interesting. Do you think those guys like Hill farmstead, tired hands, and Tree house are purposely choosing low flocculating yeast for their non american style beers. For example, is Hill farmstead's Belgian beers as hazy as his american beers?

 

[The_Glue]

I have been trying all those yeasts for this mouthfeel goal, and they all floc like mad. Really did not think the burton would but it is the clearest beer I have made recently. Flavor was ok on it

So it is time to get the real 1318? I have to ship it from an other country where they probably have pretty low sales, i hope i will get some living cells too in the sea of dead yeast.

 

[gotbags-10]

Alright so hoping to brew tomorrow. Hoping to get a little help with a water profile. 1318 yeast and all RO water. My city water is junk. Big thing obviously to focus on will be ph. What about sulfite/ chloride etc....

 

[Braufessor]

Alright so hoping to brew tomorrow. Hoping to get a little help with a water profile. 1318 yeast and all RO water. My city water is junk. Big thing obviously to focus on will be ph. What about sulfite/ chloride etc....

I have been having good luck with the following profile recently..... I have been using 60% RO water and 40% high bicarbonate tap water.

Ca = 90-100
Mg = 10-15
Na = 25-30
Sulfate = 60-70
Chloride = 125-135
Bicarbonate = 130-140
Projected mash pH = 5.45

I have been treating my mash and sparge water as follows:
CaCl = .6grams/gallon
Gypsum = .2 grams/gallon
Canning salt = .2 grams/gallon
Epsom = .1 gram/gallon

about .55ml/gallon lactic acid

Mash pH was coming in around 5.38 and boil kettle pH around 5.45 (preboil). Final runnings out of sparge around 5.6. Post boil around 5.27.

I have not used 1318 yet..... been brewing almost exclusively with Conan over the last 4+ months. I have done a couple brews with Denny's..... not sold on that yet. I will try 1318 in these beers I have been brewing once I get them dialed in with Conan.

Not saying this is the end point of experimenting.... but, I have been turning out some really nice IPA's and pale ales with this profile recently.

Been going with a few hop combinations:
***Warrior to bitter
Then all other hops at flame out or later -
*all citra
*2:1 Mosaic:Citra
*1:1 or 1:2 Galaxy:Citra

These have been my favorite combos I have done.

*** also, have a couple batches going with the 12-15% flaked oats/barley/wheat. Interested to see how they come out.

 

[Kiichi]

I have been wondering how the bittering hops could possibly contribute to the general feel, if at all. I have heard that their oil makeup has an impact on how the bitterness is percieved, but how much impact that has on the general brew I don´t know.

For example, is there a difference in resulting mouthfeel and such between:
Low alpha, low oil
Low alpha, high oil
High alpha, low oil
High alpha, high oil

I am thinking specifically about modern American high alpha compared to my personal favorite, a German hop called Polaris which sits at around 20% alpha and an arse full of oils in general. I like that one as I feel it provides me with a smooth bitterness, so I can be assertive withit without having it cut off flavor too much, thus enhancing the flavor and mouthfeel experience.

Any thoughts on this matter within our discussion gents?