A very, very basic question about mashing temperatures and body

[EinGutesBier]

Ok, so when I started AG, I read a resource that said if you have your temperature on the lower threshold of the mashing range, you'll have a fuller bodied, sweeter beer. Since that's my cup of tea, I always tried to mash at 153 degrees F (I compensated for heat loss). The problem is, the last AG I did with that technique was pretty light, though maybe kind of slick, on the mouthfeel and a bit dry overall. That's kind of been the norm for all of my AG beers. I try to use oats or carapils whenever possible to aid in head retention, and my beers usually do well in that area. It's the body and lack of sweetness that bothers me.

Besides temperature, would another factor be the grainbill (i.e. the amount of base malt for fermentables)? I suppose I could research this myself, but I figured it'd be best to go right to the source. Plus, other brewers who may be curious can refer to this thread.

 

[cowgo]

There're a lot of variables here. Have you been getting decent efficiencies with your crush? What style of beers have you been brewing and at what fermentation temperatures? Have you calibrated your thermometer to make certain that it is accurate?

You can also mash at a higher temp, say 156.

 

[DAAB]

Cooler temperatures produce a thinner drier beer. Hotter mashes a fuller bodied beer. You want to be mashing at 155 or so, maybe a shade more if you are compensating for temperature loss although it's better to insulate your mnash tun and try and keep a constant temperature for better control.

 

[abracadabra]

Ok, so when I started AG, I read a resource that said if you have your temperature on the lower threshold of the mashing range, you'll have a fuller bodied, sweeter beer..

I don't know where you read that but the opposite is true for a sweeter beer mash at a higher temp. For a dryer beer mash lower.

Try Cow's suggestions of 156* and a calibration thermometer to make sure your thermometer is accurate.

My digital thermometer is off by -5* at 155* but only -1* at 175*.

Mashing higher extracts more unfermentable sugars giving the finished product a sweeter taste.

 

[slnies]

Three things,
1. Higher temperatures in the mash will contribute to more dextrin's in you brew. This usually means a sweeter beer. 153F is still middle of the road between the two enzyme rests favoring the the alfa, this would produce a dryer beer. I like a sweeter, maltyer beer as well and I do a rest in the high 140's and another rest at 157F to 158F. This usually give me the profile I like.
2. Second, yeast can also add to your sweet flavor, or dryness. A yeast with lower attenuation will leave a higher amount of sugars left over from the ferment, also causing a sweeter beer.
3. As for a fuller bodied beer, I would recommend a stiffer mash. I do a 1# to 1qt ratio and have good results.

I hope this info. serves you well. S.

 

[EinGutesBier]

Thanks for the feedback, everyone. For the record, I've been using 1.25 quarts per pound of grain. Also, I heat up my mashing water to about 178 degrees since I've ready that between the MLT (converted keg in this case) and the grains themselves, you'll lose about 15 degrees. That's right, isn't it?

 

[PseudoChef]

Thanks for the feedback, everyone. For the record, I've been using 1.25 quarts per pound of grain. Also, I heat up my mashing water to about 178 degrees since I've ready that between the MLT (converted keg in this case) and the grains themselves, you'll lose about 15 degrees. That's right, isn't it?

It will depend on the temperature of the grains, as well. Look into a software program like Beersmith or Promash if you're into all-grain. They have features that help you calculate what temperature your strike water needs to be, how much water you'll need in your mash, etc.

For the time being, you can use this Strike Temperature Calculator to help you get a better grasp on what precise temperature your water needs to be.

 

[The Pol]

My program usually gives me the following parameters (self made spreadsheet).

Grain bill: #10
Grain Temp: 70F
Qt/Lb: 1.2
Rest: 152F
Strike: 12 qts @ 167.67F (or 168)


Grain bill: #10
Grain Temp: 70F
Qt/Lb: 1.2
Rest: 157F
Strike: 12 qts @ 173.5F (or 174f)

Works like a charm, it will even calculate my step mashes... and it cost me $0. BUT hours and hours of calculations!

Keep in mind that this assumes a warm MLT, so I open up the keggle and certain valves to circulate hot water through my plumbing and pump as well as MLT prior to striking at these temps. Otherwise the temp loss would be an uncontrolled variable.

 

[BierMuncher]

... It's the body and lack of sweetness that bothers me.
...

1) Higher mash temps = more residual sugars and a fuller bodied beer
2) Try replacing 1# of base grain with 1# of Crystal #10 or #20. Increase to your liking.

For malty ales like English Bitters and such, I will mash as high as 160. Just ask Orfy.

 

[pjj2ba]

Three things,
I like a sweeter, maltyer beer as well and I do a rest in the high 140's and another rest at 157F to 158F. This usually give me the profile I like.

I also do a step mash, but to give me lighter tasting beers with some extra body. I'll mash at 148 for 1 hr which gives me a lot of fermentables and a dry finish. Then I go up to 158 for 15 min. with the goal of getting some extra long chain dextrins to give the beer a little more body so the beer doesn't taste too thin. In about 6 batches so far doing this, this seems to work pretty well.

 

[jdoiv]

The slickness in the mouthfeel is from the oats. It's good in some styles, not so good in others.

 

[DAAB]

For malty ales like English Bitters and such, I will mash as high as 160.

I think it's worth pointing out to avoid perpetuating yet another myth about English beers that a typical mash temperature would be 150/151 with higher gravity beers being mashed at around 152-154.
If you find you have to mash as high as 160 you may have problems with other parts of the process such as low ph, over sparging or an inaccurate thermometer or you simply may have a misconception of English ales.

That's not to say English beers haven't been mash at that temperature at some point but it would be unusual.

 

[TexLaw]

The slickness in the mouthfeel is from the oats. It's good in some styles, not so good in others.

It also can be from diacetyl, which is very often described as having a "slick" mouthfeel. It's a bit different from the oatmeal sensation, which I've also heard described as "slick," though less often.


TL

 

[jdoiv]

It also can be from diacetyl, which is very often described as having a "slick" mouthfeel. It's a bit different from the oatmeal sensation, which I've also heard described as "slick," though less often.


TL

Good point! Forgot about the diacetyl. I tend to think flavor with it but it does have a mouthfeel sensation as well.

 

[EinGutesBier]

It will depend on the temperature of the grains, as well. Look into a software program like Beersmith or Promash if you're into all-grain. They have features that help you calculate what temperature your strike water needs to be, how much water you'll need in your mash, etc.

For the time being, you can use this Strike Temperature Calculator to help you get a better grasp on what precise temperature your water needs to be.

Thanks for the calculator. Interestingly, at 1.25 quarts per pound of grain, an intended strike temp of 158 degrees and a grain temperature of 50 degrees (I brew in my basement with an ambient temp of about 50 or 52) it said to use a strike water temp of 178, which I've been doing.

Let me include the AG recipe that I'm referring to when I complain that my beer is kind of light in mouthfeel and a bit dry:

Lichte Pijl Belgian Pale Ale

Grains:

5 lbs. Pale malt

1 lbs. Maris Otter

1 lbs. Carapils

.5 lbs. Munich malt

.5 lbs. Biscuit

Hops:

1.0 oz. Cascade at 60 minutes

1.0 oz. Saaz at 30 minutes

1.0 oz. Willamette at 10 minutes

Yeast:

Belgian Abbey II Activator Wyeast ACT1762

Yield: 6 gallons

Now what I'm thinking is that the beer is thin because I had too high of a yield for the amount of grain included. Maybe it affects the dryness too. Either way, I think that recipe pretty much makes a light beer. : P I updated the recipe to include more base malts and fermentables overall.

 

[DAAB]

Now what I'm thinking is that the beer is thin because I had too high of a yield for the amount of grain included. Maybe it affects the dryness too. Either way, I think that recipe pretty much makes a light beer. : P I updated the recipe to include more base malts and fermentables overall.

You should notice a marked improvement in quality if you stop sparging earlier and accept a loss of efficiency assuming you are fly sparging, say at around 1010 or 1015. You should still aim for the most efficient method you can by controlling the mash ph and sparging at a good rate, the lower efficiency should be due to the wort you are discardiing and not squeezing every last ounce of sugar from the grains (along with undersirables which can make a beer appear a little dry or thin). Be wary of people who claim they get high efficiencies from their mash, it doesn't mean they are producing good beer.

 

[EinGutesBier]

You should notice a marked improvement in quality if you stop sparging earlier and accept a loss of efficiency assuming you are fly sparging, say at around 1010 or 1015. You should still aim for the most efficient method you can by controlling the mash ph and sparging at a good rate, the lower efficiency should be due to the wort you are discardiing and not squeezing every last ounce of sugar from the grains (along with undersirables which can make a beer appear a little dry or thin). Be wary of people who claim they get high efficiencies from their mash, it doesn't mean they are producing good beer.

This sounds like very good advice, DAAB. Maybe it's because it's 4am over here, but I'm not quite sure I understand the first sentence (the stop sparging earlier part). Could you possibly expand on that a little bit for me?

 

[DAAB]

This sounds like very good advice, DAAB. Maybe it's because it's 4am over here, but I'm not quite sure I understand the first sentence (the stop sparging earlier part). Could you possibly expand on that a little bit for me?

No problems...

This is assuming you are fly sparging (ie continuous sparing) I presume you monitor the gravity of your run off and stop sparging or rinsing the grains at some point. Lots of people will stop once a sample of the wort from the mash tun run off measures 1008 (or there abouts). What i'm suggesting is stopping when a sample of the run off is still at a higher gravity eg 1010 or 1015 (ie there will still be sugars remaining in the tun but there will also be undesirable tannins left in there also).

Many people report a better quality more malty beer doing this.

You will end up with less wort to boil but you simply top this up with fresh water either in the boiler or in the fermenter so you still end up with the same brew length but the final gravity and will be lower unless you compensate by adding more grains at the very start.

It may take a few brews to work out your new efficiency using this method but once you have you can calculate your recipes based on this efficiency so you end up with the correct gravity and brew length every time.

Hope that explains it better.